Morality of Church Keylogging

[yeshuaslavejeff]

....

 

[HARK!]

OF WHAT ?

Brother, I believe we have all snacked on the bait. It's poisonous. I believe this thread was created to cause division among us. If so, it seems to have worked. Let's purge it from ourselves, and get back to edifying one another.

If members of a church do something wicked; I'm all for calling them out on it; but in this case we have no evidence that such has happened. I see no value in bickering over what appears to be a malicious invention.

If the OP comes back to refute my opinion; I'll humbly apologize for thinking such.

Shalom

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Different direction/ viewpoint to see what is happening:


Posted byu/[deleted]17 days ago
Is a school keylogging devices illegal?

Computer and Internet
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Spamwarrior
6 points · 17 days ago


If you're using their network they are legally allowed to monitor it, including in this way. There is likely a generic "monitor useage" phrase in the agreement.

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--RandomInternetGuy
Quality Contributor5 points · 17 days ago
Are you using school computers?

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ops-name-checks-out
Quality Contributor 7 points · 17 days ago
Yes it legal for a school owned computer to have a key logged and yes you can be disciplined for your “edgy prank.”

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The One and Only1 point · 17 days ago
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Author: /u/Rayburn76206

Title: Is a school keylogging devices illegal?

Original Post:

At the beginning of every school year we are 'required' to sign a computer usage policy, which I always make sure to read carefully because I want to know the limits of what we are allowed to do as someone who likes to play around with computer systems a bit. At the beginning of this year, after the policy was signed, I heard rumours of the school employing a new keylogging system. We were never told explicitly. More importantly it was never mentioned on the acceptable use policy, and there are no other terms we have ever had to agree to.

Some friends and I decided to test, to see if it was true. We set up a script to simulate key presses of a word that we assumed would be blacklisted (eventually decided on the word 'bomb' as to not cause any actual issues if something came out of it). Low and behold, about 10 minutes after we started the script both of us were called to the office of the teacher in charge of safeguarding. It seems each time the word was typed the teacher got an email from this third party software with a screenshot for context of what was going on. In this case it was a couple of hundred emails with screenshots of the word document we had been testing in. As expected, the teacher was pretty peeved, but nothing more came out of it really.

Since then multiple people have been called out because of similar instances, but nothing major, just kids being kids. It seems their excuse for not telling us is that if people knew they would know not to search these things (seems a bit backwards). My main issue, despite the fact that they didn't tell us, is that this can happen to any device connected to the network not just the school computers. Furthermore, they've been able to flag up searches for years now and even block them, this just seems like it would cause more issues as it will just flag up kids being stupid on the system and typing stupid stuff. If anyone has to type a history essay, that's bound to cause a problem; 'nazi', 'war', 'death' etc. Of course context comes into account here.

Not only this but what about security? It can't be great idea to let too many 3rd party companies have access to our data, they could keylog anything if they wanted to.

So my main question is: is this legal? I'm more curious at this point then genuinely concerned, but I'm certainly morally opposed to keylogging in general and the potential surveillance and censorship that this could bring. Seeing as we weren't told of this and therefore couldn't consent I don't see how this should be allowed, unless we somehow consent just by using the network, although you'd expect that they would have to say that specifically.

TL;DR: school is keylogging a blacklist of words without anyone's prior knowledge or consent, seems like it should be illegal as such an invasion of privacy.

Thanks, and sorry if this is a stupid question/waste of time.

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[yeshuaslavejeff]

but in this case we have no evidence that such has happened.

When does the "evidence" come to light?
Does someone say in the bulletin: Hi, I'm monitoring your phone, internet and computer use....? I might be keylogging also. Have fun ?

but wouldn't you want to know how much your internet/ computer/ phone use is watched, monitored, copied and used ?

(perhaps seeing the use of "smart phones" information online or in the news on television would be easier to grasp how much this is happening ? )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Congress gets involved (though may be not much help , or may be, to 'victims'/ targets) :

Spyware: Background and Policy Issues for Congress

"Spyware: Background and Policy Issues for Congress December 21, 2004 – January 12, 2011"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you using computers that belong to a church or a ministry then I think they got the right to do this.

This is true, at least as a business model, but many or most people are apparently completely unaware of the extent of this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

too much information ....

 

[Hammster]

OF WHAT ?

“In Tulsa there may be 120 churches all 'sold' on the idea of keylogging,”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

“In Tulsa there may be 120 churches all 'sold' on the idea of keylogging,”

That's a true statement.


A change in direction/ viewpoint/ perspective is needed now.

(became aware that the large churches potentially involved cannot be named)

 

[RDKirk]

It may be quite common where there are associations of pastors/ churches/ in many cities.
In Tulsa there may be 120 churches all 'sold' on the idea of keylogging, going along with it because it is the thing to do within the organization/ collaboration of <worldly?> churches/ and other associations / agencies , etc....

Those not willingly doing this, are often still 'keylogged' in a way , as everything type on this forum, is copied and used later "when convenient",
and likewise as the email providers and search engines are known for, EVERYTHING is copied and analyzed and kept - obstensably for 'marketing'/ to cover 'costs' of the providers, deceptively though , as it is all being summed up in the beast system everywhere.

A few unanswered questions there. Are they keylogging personal computers? If so, how are they keylogging those who aren't willing? How are they accounting for cell phones and all other computers? computers at the library? I use four different devices just in my own house.

The service providers sell accumulated data, they don't sell personalized information, particularly not to small-time private parties like churches.

 

[RDKirk]

No. Most corporate entities, and most government entities, (if not all), and most churches, may routinely do this, in the ordinary practice in life "as a business".
They usually do not have to worry about this at all.
They usually do not worry (or they always worry?) (as the wicked have no peace)...
since it is common accepted practice.
(perhaps as much as everything on most or all smart phones is logged by google, yahoo, and many other electronic entities EVERY DAY.)

No. Not any of that.

 

[RDKirk]

A reported several years ago was 'allowed' to go to a 'secret' (or secure) google server site (humongous computers) to see what they have there.

They allowed her to type her id into one of the inside terminals to see what they had on her.

Everything .

Everything she had EVER typed into any computer connected to the internet.

Yes, Everything - every address, every email, every password, every account, every word ever entered into the computer while online (and often while off line, then later connected) .

NSA can't even do that.

And I know that for a fact.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

NSA can't even do that.

And I know that for a fact.

No, you don't.
It took only 1.24 seconds to find the article:

www.wired.com › 2012/10 › ff-inside-google-data-center

Google Throws Open Doors to Its Top-Secret Data Center ...
Oct 17, 2012 - If you're looking for the beating heart of the digital age--a physical location ... only critical employees have been permitted even a peek inside, a prohibition that ... My visit is the latest evidence that Google is relaxing its black-box policy. ... Traditionally, data centers cool them off with giant computer room air ...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No. Not any of that.

footnote concerning the software:
"The keylogger is another application that cracks, captures or unlocks passwords of internet café users. A lot of online gamers among the youths already knew this cheat, which is another secret kept by unscrupulous internet café owners, technicians and assistants. Sources said that a lot of trial versions of various keyloggers can be downloaded from many websites.
Some keyloggers are not even visible in the program folders. They’re so perfectly made to hide it from the other users except the one who installed it or the administrator."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

....

 

[RDKirk]

what the government does is run word searches of key words across the internet, and when those words pop up in varying order, the internet post gets flagged and analyzed to see if it's a threat to national security.

It's more extensive than merely key words. Criteria include things like time of day, locations of origin and destination, length of the message, particular kinds of phrases, inclusion of certain topics and lack of other topics, comparison of a hundred characteristics of all the messages from that origin to that destination and compared to messages from that origin to other destinations...with cross-checking all those factors against one another. And other factors I won't mention outside a SCIF, plus other factors I don't know about myself. And that's done automatically, no human eyes involved. When criteria align in certain ways, the system alerts a human analyst to take check the criteria. Only then does he seek legal permission to actually look at the text of the messages.

 

[RDKirk]

"The keylogger is another application that cracks, captures or unlocks passwords of internet café users. A lot of online gamers among the youths already knew this cheat, which is another secret kept by unscrupulous internet café owners, technicians and assistants. Sources said that a lot of trial versions of various keyloggers can be downloaded from many websites.
Some keyloggers are not even visible in the program folders. They’re so perfectly made to hide it from the other users except the one who installed it or the administrator."

That is talking about people computing on unsecured public networks. That's not what this thread is about. And it says nothing about your claim that all businesses, churches, and the government are doing it.

Do you have any concept of how many keystrokes are made in the US each day? Even each minute?

 

[RDKirk]

Did you ever work for the CIA? FBI? INTERPOL ? Hackers Anonymous ? KGB ?

NOTHING typed on a computer is safe from eavesdropping, with few exceptions,
as THOUSANDS of people who lost all their savings or identity found out several times in the last ten or twenty years.

Identity theft is not a matter of keylogging.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In "terms of service" or other announcements, yahoo and google email, and many others, made known/ make known,, that every email (that they process) is copied, analyzed, stored, etc ...

www.zdnet.com › article › simple-security-step-by-step-guide

Online security 101: Tips for protecting your privacy from ...
Sep 11, 2018 - This simple advice will help to protect you against hackers and ... nowadays secure your data with encryption on their servers to prevent data from ... data broker websites online, starting at $129 per year - they also offer ... Let's get one myth out of the way: There is no secure email solution -- at least not yet.


" Let's get one myth out of the way: There is no secure email solution -- at least not yet. While there are systems like PGP encryption, which remains the favorite for scrambling the contents of email messages,"

 

[RDKirk]

It does if they pay for it.

Well, that bill is certainly going to show up in the budget.