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Berean
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Since I am replying to you, I'll ask you now to BE SPECIFIC >>

> sincy you claim the claim was made (by me?) that quote: "there are churches guilty of keylogging their members" end quote,
I'll ask you kindly to show me ANYONE who showed that I made that claim quoting me doing so.

Remember, specifically, accurately, is important.
How can I be specific since you scrubbed most of your previous posts.
I was simply agreeing with others that you need to bring forth evidence that churches were keylogging their members.
I'll take your 'scrubbing' as a retraction.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Immaturely, I got angry and began leaving deliberate messages in my closed facebook posts and my college papers. This did not go over well.
smile.
No sin in this. It happens while growing in Christ to a lot of us.
Notice how many posters immaturely (or just plain disobediently) got angry and sinned though. See? It is common.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I am truly a follower of Christ not trying to stir up anything. I was also hoping for anyone else who knew about this kind of stuff. I am actually protecting people by not giving names/dates and places. I have had years to wrestle with the right and wrong of this. I truly do see it as wrong all the way but some part of me wants to justify such actions so I don't cause a stir and feel so sad about it. I don't want to think bad of anyone especially those in the family of faith. Thanks for interacting with the post. I have been busy homeschooling my kiddos and helping my hubby with his college. So no abandoning going on.

As far as causing trouble, I get in trouble if I fight back by leaving messages for churches to keylog. That is how I discovered the practice. It began when I was a seminary student typing all my papers in unprotected Word documents. Part of the seminary program involved ways to make the church stronger or methods/programs and practices the church used that might be ineffective or inefficient. I began getting sermon feedback on some mighty familiar content. As a military spouse we move a lot. Two-three churches later and a Christian counseling degree program later, I began to noticing both my closed facebook group posts (Christian homeschooling groups) and my college papers were being commented on in sermons. Immaturely, I got angry and began leaving deliberate messages in my closed facebook posts and my college papers. This did not go over well.

Sermons got positively hostile. Even my husband started to notice and he was thought I was crazy for the longest time. Even my last post on this very sight was picked apart the following week in church using the same verses I used. Obviously, I could point to dates and recorded sermons but some of our local church leaders are amazing and I do not want that. So as much as they do not like me, I am still protecting them

. Anyway so my husband finally believed me. I can't tell you the relief. We are very brokenhearted and in between churches desperately waiting for our next move because moving churches here did not help. It only got worse. That is why I suspected churches are in some kind of circle doing this stuff. The Tulsa church ring helped me confirm what I thought might be going on. If this is considered an accusation, I apologize. And I accept all consequences both on earth and in heaven.

Sincerely in Christ,
A. Myers

Do you understand that "keylogger" refers to software installed on your personal computer and records every single keystroke you make, as well as every website you visit? It can see what you type in word and never publish.

Do you understand that it is legal to install a keylogger on your own personal computer but it is illegal to install on a computer owned by someone else?

Do you understand that simply knowing the content of the material you publish whether online or on college associated sites is not proof of having keylogger malware installed illegally on your computer?

DO you understand that you can check your computer for keyloggers?

Do you understand that all malware can be removed, by yourself, on your computer?

Have you checked your computer for a keylogger and have physical proof one has been installed by a third party?

Have you found proof that your church is the responsible party for the installation of this keylogger on your personal computer?

WHEN you showed this proof to the police what did they do? (It is a prosecutible crime after all)

What you post online is public, whether you post it inside a private group or not those people who are members of your group can see the content, as well as the content you publish publicly..

I am a member of a secret (not private but secret which has stricter rules for privacy) Facebook group but anyone of its hundred or two hundred members knows my real name and has access to all the content I publish there. They can also go to my public Facebook page and see everything I publish publicly...

Those who I invite into the group may be freinds or know me outside of Facebook, so they will also know what I publish both privately and publicly as well as know all my freinds and family and acquaintances, and if they share what I have published with others, I certainly couldn't stop them. It's still "public" because a great many people can see and read it, and know who I am.

So if your posting content fairly well everywhere, and you end up hearing about it in a sermon, a "keylogger" isn't the only means by which a pastor can come across knowledge of what your saying, most especially if what your saying is anathema according to the church your in.... People will go to the pastor with questions, he may ask them where they heard such a thing and they will tell him it came from what your teaching.

The more controversial your religion related content is, the more likely your pastor will hear of it - private or not.

But this isn't keylogging.. that's a specific malware installed on your private computer, and your accusations are that this malware has been installed on your private computer without your consent by those in your churches leadership.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Let's get one myth out of the way: There is no secure email solution -- at least not yet. While there are systems like PGP encryption, which remains the favorite for scrambling the contents of email messages,
How to keep your data secure and private, step by step

"The keylogger is another application that cracks, captures or unlocks passwords of internet café users. A lot of online gamers among the youths already knew this cheat, which is another secret kept by unscrupulous internet café owners, technicians and assistants. Sources said that a lot of trial versions of various keyloggers can be downloaded from many websites.
Some keyloggers are not even visible in the program folders. They’re so perfectly made to hide it from the other users except the one who installed it or the administrator."
 
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HappyHope

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Do you understand that "keylogger" refers to software installed on your personal computer and records every single keystroke you make, as well as every website you visit? It can see what you type in word and never publish.

Do you understand that it is legal to install a keylogger on your own personal computer but it is illegal to install on a computer owned by someone else?

Do you understand that simply knowing the content of the material you publish whether online or on college associated sites is not proof of having keylogger malware installed illegally on your computer?

DO you understand that you can check your computer for keyloggers?

Do you understand that all malware can be removed, by yourself, on your computer?

Have you checked your computer for a keylogger and have physical proof one has been installed by a third party?

Have you found proof that your church is the responsible party for the installation of this keylogger on your personal computer?

WHEN you showed this proof to the police what did they do? (It is a prosecutible crime after all)

What you post online is public, whether you post it inside a private group or not those people who are members of your group can see the content, as well as the content you publish publicly..

I am a member of a secret (not private but secret which has stricter rules for privacy) Facebook group but anyone of its hundred or two hundred members knows my real name and has access to all the content I publish there. They can also go to my public Facebook page and see everything I publish publicly...

Those who I invite into the group may be freinds or know me outside of Facebook, so they will also know what I publish both privately and publicly as well as know all my freinds and family and acquaintances, and if they share what I have published with others, I certainly couldn't stop them. It's still "public" because a great many people can see and read it, and know who I am.

So if your posting content fairly well everywhere, and you end up hearing about it in a sermon, a "keylogger" isn't the only means by which a pastor can come across knowledge of what your saying, most especially if what your saying is anathema according to the church your in.... People will go to the pastor with questions, he may ask them where they heard such a thing and they will tell him it came from what your teaching.

The more controversial your religion related content is, the more likely your pastor will hear of it - private or not.

But this isn't keylogging.. that's a specific malware installed on your private computer, and your accusations are that this malware has been installed on your private computer without your consent by those in your churches leadership.[/QUOTE

At first I was flattered. I though maybe it was God using me. Later, I tried a VPN. Then, we changed to Malware bites. Eventually, I filed an FBI report dealing with online crimes, because I feared local law enforcement who attend the local churches. I cannot even be sure what has been happening is called keylogging, but something like it seems to be going on. When I learned how keylogging can read google searches, facebook posts and Word documents, it fit. Also, I have picked up over the years they can only read my words and not those I reply to. There have been some misinterpretations at times.

In all honestly, I used this forum to both communicate with any potential keyloggers as well as look for anyone with information about this. I didn't want to believe some churches could willingly be a part of something illegal. I wanted feedback on the morality for sure in case this truly is a thing. I have dedicated my life in service to Christ. I truly cannot fathom this level of ugly and part of me doesn't want to. Thanks again for helping me see things more clearly.
 
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Hazelelponi

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. I cannot even be sure what has been happening is called keylogging, but something like it seems to be going on.

Read online how to disinfect your computer - and don't use so-called free anything to do it.

Take your entire computer back to factory settings if you cant figure it out otherwise - and use the recovery discs you got with various software packages to reinstall your important software which you purchased.

Back up your papers, and your photos on an external hard drive first.

Then after you've returned to factory settings, install a good security program, I've had excellent success with Kaspersky and found it way way way better than packages like Norton and others offer..

If your issue is malware related (keyloggers) it will end the next day. If it's word of mouth; someone reading your stuff and talking to other church members, the issue your having will continue.

Kaspersky is very aggressive in stopping malware, so it should stop the problem from ever recurring if you got hold of a keylogger.
 
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Hazelelponi

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As a beside, I don't know your denomination but if you clear out your computer and the issue really does come to a full stop I would change churches. (Mainline churches might not always be perfect but they are usually quite safe)
 
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HARK!

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I am truly a follower of Christ not trying to stir up anything. I was also hoping for anyone else who knew about this kind of stuff. I am actually protecting people by not giving names/dates and places. I have had years to wrestle with the right and wrong of this. I truly do see it as wrong all the way but some part of me wants to justify such actions so I don't cause a stir and feel so sad about it. I don't want to think bad of anyone especially those in the family of faith. Thanks for interacting with the post. I have been busy homeschooling my kiddos and helping my hubby with his college. So no abandoning going on.

As far as causing trouble, I get in trouble if I fight back by leaving messages for churches to keylog. That is how I discovered the practice. It began when I was a seminary student typing all my papers in unprotected Word documents. Part of the seminary program involved ways to make the church stronger or methods/programs and practices the church used that might be ineffective or inefficient. I began getting sermon feedback on some mighty familiar content. As a military spouse we move a lot. Two-three churches later and a Christian counseling degree program later, I began to noticing both my closed facebook group posts (Christian homeschooling groups) and my college papers were being commented on in sermons. Immaturely, I got angry and began leaving deliberate messages in my closed facebook posts and my college papers. This did not go over well.

Sermons got positively hostile. Even my husband started to notice and he was thought I was crazy for the longest time. Even my last post on this very sight was picked apart the following week in church using the same verses I used. Obviously, I could point to dates and recorded sermons but some of our local church leaders are amazing and I do not want that. So as much as they do not like me, I am still protecting them

. Anyway so my husband finally believed me. I can't tell you the relief. We are very brokenhearted and in between churches desperately waiting for our next move because moving churches here did not help. It only got worse. That is why I suspected churches are in some kind of circle doing this stuff. The Tulsa church ring helped me confirm what I thought might be going on. If this is considered an accusation, I apologize. And I accept all consequences both on earth and in heaven.

Sincerely in Christ,
A. Myers

I'm terribly sorry that this has happened to you; and my doubting your sincerity and veracity certainly did not help with the frustration you must be going through. You have my sincere apology, and my deep sympathy.
 
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HARK!

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smile... with hope.... that your motives are indeed as expected pure and holy. I don't remember if you made any false claims/ accusations and it doesn't matter.... the goal was understanding of not only the op, but of the quick and stubborn replies that thought it impossible that churches and other entities could do such a thing, and that such a thing would make them somehow oh so bad or guilty. (when actually it may be a common practice where they work and where they worship without them even ever hearing about it) ....

No, no false accusation; but apparently I did raise unfounded suspicions. I hope that you don't feel that I am quick to think that it's impossible for churches to do such a thing. I'm certainly not one to belly up to the Kool-Aid bar.

Anyway, I suppose I might owe you an apology too; but when you were digging in your heels with that Moderator; I was concerned for you.

I'm sorry if I cramped your style.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No, no false accusation; but apparently I did raise unfounded suspicions. I hope that you don't feel that I am quick to think that it's impossible for churches to do such a thing. I'm certainly not one to belly up to the Kool-Aid bar.

Anyway, I suppose I might owe you an apology too; but when you were digging in your heels with that Moderator; I was concerned for you.

I'm sorry if I cramped your style.
No, not at all as far as I'm concerned (i.e. no problem, what a challenge this was and is)

- you were and are REFRESHING ! Shalom to you and your household today !

Those who are defending places without testing them, whether morality, or legal, or illegal, true or false -
all must be tested otherwise the false is accepted - mainline or not , must be tested.
 
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HappyHope

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Thanks everyone. Totally tearing up. This is a very sensitive situation for us and I did stay away a day after posting - half because I was busy and half because I was afraid of both denials or affirmations. I do want to reset all our computers to factory settings in case it helps. When we move, I think we'll find the tiniest country church and pour ourselves into it. Good Lord willing! :prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:

I wonder if bleaching our computers might really help? We used to not have internet on our phones and would connect to one of these churches' WiFI networks. (Homeschool family- one income then- we were cheap). If they keylogged our phones on their network and got our internet network password, I worry we are done for while living here if there is a ring of churches doing this together here. I already changed the network password but that did not help. They might have keylogged the updated password before it went through and took effect. I've put a lot of thought into this but can't be sure.

Oh well, thanks again for hearing me out. We'll probably move within the year anyway. The Lord knows whatever is going on and has been helping us through this situation one day at a time. We serve a good God no matter what. Can't be surprised by various trials... Thanks again everyone!
 
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They might have keylogged the updated password before it went through and took effect. I've put a lot of thought into this but can't be sure.

You could change your password at a public library computer.
 
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Highly doubt this is actually happening unless it's on equipment the church has provided people.

If it isn't something that is happening on church-owned computers then I highly doubt it's happening. Using spyware is obviously very, very illegal.

Report them to your local police and you can submit a tip to the FBI's cyber crime department online. This absolutely needs reporting.
 
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Report them to your local police and you can submit a tip to the FBI's cyber crime department online. This absolutely needs reporting.


^^^^^^^^^^THIS!^^^^^^^^^^
 
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Hazelelponi

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Thanks everyone. Totally tearing up. This is a very sensitive situation for us and I did stay away a day after posting - half because I was busy and half because I was afraid of both denials or affirmations. I do want to reset all our computers to factory settings in case it helps. When we move, I think we'll find the tiniest country church and pour ourselves into it. Good Lord willing! :prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:

I wonder if bleaching our computers might really help? We used to not have internet on our phones and would connect to one of these churches' WiFI networks. (Homeschool family- one income then- we were cheap). If they keylogged our phones on their network and got our internet network password, I worry we are done for while living here if there is a ring of churches doing this together here. I already changed the network password but that did not help. They might have keylogged the updated password before it went through and took effect. I've put a lot of thought into this but can't be sure.

Oh well, thanks again for hearing me out. We'll probably move within the year anyway. The Lord knows whatever is going on and has been helping us through this situation one day at a time. We serve a good God no matter what. Can't be surprised by various trials... Thanks again everyone!

Phones. You can reset your phone's back to factory settings as well - but sit and write down all your saved contacts and phone numbers and anything else that you need off your phone.

I once went back to factory settings on my phone and lost every phone number that I had in it because I didn't have anything written down and wasn't thinking that since we don't actually dial numbers anymore I wouldn't actually remember them.. lol

Bleach bit works for when you delete small amounts of data or programs, it cleans any residual off the computer so when you defrag your computer the defragging is cleaner..

But if you end up going back to factory settings you won't need to use it.
 
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HappyHope

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As a beside, I don't know your denomination but if you clear out your computer and the issue really does come to a full stop I would change churches. (Mainline churches might not always be perfect but they are usually quite safe)

I don't think theological differences can be the cause because we were at a baptist church and I attended a baptist seminary (Thanks GI Bill!- Go Liberty Flames!) Plus, I grew up baptist. Nothing too fundamental or overly extreme. There was no real conflict there except I became aware of some creepy coincidences and just thought God might be working through my textbooks and course papers *somehow* . I think they even tried to implement some new programs and even correct my understanding of my homework at times. I was kind of grateful and flattered in a creeped out way.

The next church was nondenominational and nothing like this of the sort. Straightforward humble, godly folks for sure.

The real ugliness didn't happen until we relocated to another state and attended two nondenominational churches back-to-back. I could not fault their theology though because we were in agreement. I usually dig into belief statements before ever stepping foot into a church with intent to give, serve, and worship. At one point, I was the only homeschool mom volunteering regularly in children's ministry that wasn't a public school teacher. I always wondered if that had something to do with my closed homeschool group posts being used against me in that church. My textbooks were quoted too but only the quotes I used in my papers.

There was other stuff too like flirtation. The Holy Spirit actually warned me not to talk to a certain pastor there. And I admit I was more flattered than I should have been for a happily married woman. Creepy though. The week after I sent them a message we were done with them, there was a church flier on our door ...for a baptist church this time. I wondered if they were in cahoots with the church we just left.

The second nondenominational church took off the kid gloves and all but stopped pretending. I suspected they were in on it when I accidentally typed my the password "badbooks##" into a google search when trying to log into something. (It was just a password) I was very mad at one of my more secular college textbooks as well as its resale value when I made that password. Anyway, sure enough I start hearing form the pulpit shortly thereafter to put away the "bad books." That just clued me in but didn't confirm anything until later. It got much much worse but I did start leaving messages in google searches on different computers to test out my theory.

They left a lot of evidence too if they haven't taken down their recorded sermons already. Shame because I just wanted a fresh start after the last church. I even tried to meet with them to sort it out. It got so hairy. I think they tried to offer an apology or two later from the pulpit but too much was lost. I could not take them seriously anymore. (think glaring directly at me right before the Lord's Supper because they misinterpreted a message I sent them the week prior about glaring at me. Not kidding. It was ugly.) The overt glaring is what finally clued my husband in for sure. I was sadly grateful. That and my husband witnessed one of my posts from this very site being used against me from the pulpit shortly after I posted it.

I've seriously thought about asking Christianity Today to investigate this kind of thing. I totally approve of how they called out Jerry Falwell from Liberty University-my alma mater.

I am thinking we should go back to a baptist church when we move because they had much more restraint if this kind of thing is the new norm....but just a tiny church this time. Seems safer by far in our experience.

Sorry if too much info. No worries if you don't believe me fully. Five years ago, I would not have trusted someone with a story like this. I wanted to purge for therapeutic reasons. I hope i have not misrepresented or distorted anything. Gotta homeschool my kids now and take care of my guinea pigs.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Sorry if too much info. No worries if you don't believe me fully. Five years ago, I would not have trusted someone with a story like this. I wanted to purge for therapeutic reasons. I hope i have not misrepresented or distorted anything. Gotta homeschool my kids now and take care of my guinea pigs.
COOL! Can guinea's learn math ? :) hahaha..... All that you recounted has been seen frequently the last century, and testified to in many places/ posts/ news/ and so forth - usually not repeated much, as "they all" want it to just go away, if they even ever admit it... the news about sexual sins fills the airwaves and the internet some days, frequently, year after year.... even mainstream cannot be trusted unless tried, tested, as Scripture says to do with every message, every messenger. I don't know why others are or seem so unaware of this, not for any good true reason anyway...
 
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Hazelelponi

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I don't think theological differences can be the cause because we were at a baptist church and I attended a baptist seminary (Thanks GI Bill!- Go Liberty Flames!) Plus, I grew up baptist. Nothing too fundamental or overly extreme. There was no real conflict there except I became aware of some creepy coincidences and just thought God might be working through my textbooks and course papers *somehow* . I think they even tried to implement some new programs and even correct my understanding of my homework at times. I was kind of grateful and flattered in a creeped out way.

The next church was nondenominational and nothing like this of the sort. Straightforward humble, godly folks for sure.

The real ugliness didn't happen until we relocated to another state and attended two nondenominational churches back-to-back. I could not fault their theology though because we were in agreement. I usually dig into belief statements before ever stepping foot into a church with intent to give, serve, and worship. At one point, I was the only homeschool mom volunteering regularly in children's ministry that wasn't a public school teacher. I always wondered if that had something to do with my closed homeschool group posts being used against me in that church. My textbooks were quoted too but only the quotes I used in my papers.

There was other stuff too like flirtation. The Holy Spirit actually warned me not to talk to a certain pastor there. And I admit I was more flattered than I should have been for a happily married woman. Creepy though. The week after I sent them a message we were done with them, there was a church flier on our door ...for a baptist church this time. I wondered if they were in cahoots with the church we just left.

The second nondenominational church took off the kid gloves and all but stopped pretending. I suspected they were in on it when I accidentally typed my the password "badbooks##" into a google search when trying to log into something. (It was just a password) I was very mad at one of my more secular college textbooks as well as its resale value when I made that password. Anyway, sure enough I start hearing form the pulpit shortly thereafter to put away the "bad books." That just clued me in but didn't confirm anything until later. It got much much worse but I did start leaving messages in google searches on different computers to test out my theory.

They left a lot of evidence too if they haven't taken down their recorded sermons already. Shame because I just wanted a fresh start after the last church. I even tried to meet with them to sort it out. It got so hairy. I think they tried to offer an apology or two later from the pulpit but too much was lost. I could not take them seriously anymore. (think glaring directly at me right before the Lord's Supper because they misinterpreted a message I sent them the week prior about glaring at me. Not kidding. It was ugly.) The overt glaring is what finally clued my husband in for sure. I was sadly grateful. That and my husband witnessed one of my posts from this very site being used against me from the pulpit shortly after I posted it.

I've seriously thought about asking Christianity Today to investigate this kind of thing. I totally approve of how they called out Jerry Falwell from Liberty University-my alma mater.

I am thinking we should go back to a baptist church when we move because they had much more restraint if this kind of thing is the new norm....but just a tiny church this time. Seems safer by far in our experience.

Sorry if too much info. No worries if you don't believe me fully. Five years ago, I would not have trusted someone with a story like this. I wanted to purge for therapeutic reasons. I hope i have not misrepresented or distorted anything. Gotta homeschool my kids now and take care of my guinea pigs.

The problem with many Baptist and non -denominational churches is the lack of church oversight by a governing body.

In many cases you can weed out bad ones by reading their statements, but it's not always that simple, and cult of personalities always find the most inroads in churches without oversight. Little things here, and little things there can creep in without people realizing it so much, and before you know it bad things are going on.

When there's no governing body there are fewer if any checks and balances and things can run amuck quickly.

I like Baptist churches but I wouldn't recommend someone blindly trust one because there is such a great number of independent Baptist churches and some wild ones exist. I'd rather recommend something more mainline like Presbyterian as a result.

Certainly where you find yourself in the future always depends, but as you do have young children at stake, you may find yourself happier in a more structured and safe environment without the need for church hopping so much.

Anyway, God bless you.
 
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Rajni

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I think we had a woman on here concerned that her Pastor had done just that. He'd gotten ahold of everyone's phones, returned them, and then mysteriously began preaching on exactly what parishioners had been discussing at home and / or searching for on their phones. And claiming that God had given him prophetic insight, rather than admitting to hacking / spying on their devices. It was creepy.
That would be creepy.

It would also undermine people's faith over time, because
once it's assumed that such 'prophetic' insights could just as
easily be the result of keylogging or other man-made methods,
God wouldn't get as much of the glory for the timeliness and
relevance of a message as before. Churches need to keep that
in mind as well.
 
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