Morality of Church Keylogging

[HappyHope]

The problem with many Baptist and non -denominational churches is the lack of church oversight by a governing body.

In many cases you can weed out bad ones by reading their statements, but it's not always that simple, and cult of personalities always find the most inroads in churches without oversight. Little things here, and little things there can creep in without people realizing it so much, and before you know it bad things are going on.

When there's no governing body there are fewer if any checks and balances and things can run amuck quickly.

I like Baptist churches but I wouldn't recommend someone blindly trust one because there is such a great number of independent Baptist churches and some wild ones exist. I'd rather recommend something more mainline like Presbyterian as a result.

Certainly where you find yourself in the future always depends, but as you do have young children at stake, you may find yourself happier in a more structured and safe environment without the need for church hopping so much.

Anyway, God bless you.

I can very much agree on the lack of checks and balances/ oversight. Man’s fallen nature can’t be trusted too much without reliable accountability especially in areas of human reasoning where power is concerned.

The last two nondenominational churches we attended had a bit of a family dynasty thing going on with inherited pulpits. Not always bad when fathers hand down their jobs to sons but not always healthy either. I’ll research Presbyterian churches. I’ll be honest, I never once considered the denomination. I thought it might be too much in the spirit of Catholicism for my Protestant sensibilities. But these are new times. Anything to worship Jesus corporately in peace. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[HappyHope]

Last, if anyone has information about this kind of violation, please feel free to message me. I know being a victim of any kind of church keylogging or similar is painful and calling it out can feel somewhere between being an early Cosby accuser and Martin Luther nailing his 95 Thesis up on the church door.

Sincerely in Christ,
HappyHope

 

[HappyHope]

Wow, I just received an email from a church in the town we are moving to. It was an invitation to check out their church. VBS was mentioned. We have never been to that church. I have been googling churches in that area though. I have been mentioning VBS in another forum here. Perhaps its a coincidence? In any case, I could never trust a church or a network of churches that hack computers. I do not trust them with my family. I do not trust them with my children.

 

[JohnDB]

Wow, I just received an email from a church in the town we are moving to. It was an invitation to check out their church. VBS was mentioned. We have never been to that church. I have been googling churches in that area though. I have been mentioning VBS in another forum here. Perhaps its a coincidence? In any case, I could never trust a church or a network of churches that hack computers. I do not trust them with my family. I do not trust them with my children.

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

 

[JohnDB]

Church security is a tricky situation.

Simple security cameras that track who comes and goes can become insanely complicated. Especially about who has access to the footage.

I researched Church fires...Bill Clinton's administration had conducted a nationwide review of as many as they could find records on.
About a third of all church churc were arson started by either the pastor of the church or one of the members.
Churches are also the primary target for imbezelement and thieves.

Church employees are also notorious for being either overworked or underutilized. (middle ground is usually never found)
Appreciation for good jobs accomplished doesn't happen often.

Firewalls for the usual suspect websites and password protection for access on every computer to the intranet and internet that can be pinged to see history is fairly standard SOP for everyone.
(If it's digital it's accessable)

Some of the church staff works diligently gratis...pro Bono. The rest have to give ten percent back to their employer. But it's still a good idea to remove and secure the keys to the petty cash box and secure all credit accounts with a job number only approved by particular people. (The Judas can be one of them)

Even still... when there is money involved there is room for abuse and scams... And churches seem to attract them all.

 

[HappyHope]

Church security is a tricky situation.

Simple security cameras that track who comes and goes can become insanely complicated. Especially about who has access to the footage.

I researched Church fires...Bill Clinton's administration had conducted a nationwide review of as many as they could find records on.
About a third of all church churc were arson started by either the pastor of the church or one of the members.
Churches are also the primary target for imbezelement and thieves.

Church employees are also notorious for being either overworked or underutilized. (middle ground is usually never found)
Appreciation for good jobs accomplished doesn't happen often.

Firewalls for the usual suspect websites and password protection for access on every computer to the intranet and internet that can be pinged to see history is fairly standard SOP for everyone.
(If it's digital it's accessable)

Some of the church staff works diligently gratis...pro Bono. The rest have to give ten percent back to their employer. But it's still a good idea to remove and secure the keys to the petty cash box and secure all credit accounts with a job number only approved by particular people. (The Judas can be one of them)

Even still... when there is money involved there is room for abuse and scams... And churches seem to attract them all.

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

I would like to think it is only questionable marketing tactics at fault. That would be nice.

 

[HappyHope]

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

Do you know if there is a way to find out which churches have bought into this kind of "marketing?"

 

[JohnDB]

Do you know if there is a way to find out which churches have bought into this kind of "marketing?"

Google sells everyone's information... including those buying information from them.

Just saying.

 

[HappyHope]

Google sells everyone's information... including those buying information from them.

Just saying.

Secular companies selling unethical goods and services is one thing. The church buying them without shame is another.

 

[Caliban]

**Update/Clarification: This includes home networks unconnected to church networks except when tithing online.

I want to present the case of the morality or immorality of churches using keylogging. This is a technology that records every key stroke one makes on their computer. Some companies and institutions can legally keylog employees on work computers but there are also illegal methods and situations where keylogging is used too.

I have come across churches using keylogging not just for those in church leadership or their volunteers but for regular church attenders. They then take their findings and tweak sermons according to the information gained. I can see pros and cons.

Pros: Monitor youth/children's ministry volunteers for the safety reasons. Monitor other church leaders concerning habits that could jeopardize their ministry (adulterous digital footprints/ abundant orders of alcohol suggesting alcoholism...etc... The argument could be made if you have nothing to hide, you should not object to keylogging. Pastors would be more in touch with the goings on in their congregations in order to customize sermons and biblical passages.

Cons: Human Nature tends to abuse power even with good intentions. Pastors and church leaders might misinterpret keylogging data. Perhaps pulpit taunts could happen over differences in the theological nonessentials unrelated to salvation. Or extreme cases where keylogging data is misinterpreted and innocent individuals are removed from their ministry calling without any understanding of why and little to no room for biblical recourse as in Matthew 18 because their "trial" was secretly completed behind closed doors over misunderstood keylogging data. Also, any keylogged information like personal struggles with one's body or emotional health are recorded for church keyloggers. Financial calculations are available for keyloggers to view too. Pastors perversely flirting with or flaming congregants over keylogged information.

My view: I know it's a new world and technology can be a help or a hindrance. Personally, keylogging unsuspecting church attenders seems like an intensely intimate violation even for completely innocent Christian targets. But I can see how some would argue for the use of keylogging today for safety and accountability in the church. I would love to know what other Christians think.

Wow--I've never heard of churches doing this. I would have run out the door. But I could see how some poeopl in the church high consider this an accountability tool. Invasive programs like CovenantEyes are popular, but work very differently.

 

[JohnDB]

Accountability partners only work with honesty...
Spying on people's lives is not going to fix anything.
Attitudes is where the real problems lie...not so much actions which are the symptom of the larger problem.

 

[HappyHope]

Accountability partners only work with honesty...
Spying on people's lives is not going to fix anything.
Attitudes is where the real problems lie...not so much actions which are the symptom of the larger problem.

Yes! It always comes back to the heart. That is exactly what I want to address. I would tell any church doing anything like this to stop hurting people and fix yourselves. I have told one church leader in a google— search— type message that whatever it is you gain from doing this it isn’t what you need. They hurt themselves too .

 

[Sammy-San]

How did these churches ever get access to their members computers? Did they hack them? If the churches are keylogging on computers which are church property; then I would say they are within their right.

What's keylogging

 

[HARK!]

What's keylogging

https://www.howtogeek.com/180615/keyloggers-explained-what-you-need-to-know/

 

[Nithavela]

Why not just install cameras in church member houses? If you've got nothing to hide...

 

[Nithavela]

It comes from Google ads with an expensive add on package.
You should be mad at Google for selling you out. Not the church for buying the information and sending you an invite.

I think he should be mad at both.

 

[HappyHope]

Why not just install cameras in church member houses? If you've got nothing to hide...

Right! No need for installing cameras because our cell phones and laptops already have then, not to mention cell phone and computer microphones can be hacked. Nothing to hide, right? They'll be the judge of that.

 

[HappyHope]

Learned a valuable communication lesson from these yucky happenings. Not only is it bad for churches to do this. It is also very unhealthy for their victims to try and communicate with them through the same kind of means like leaving deliberate messages for church leaders to find on one's own computer.

Even if the messages are naively meant to be helpful, it's a stupid move. If church leader can justify this kind of wrongness on any level, they are outside my ability to help anyway. Plus, it is all so wrong no one should do this creepy covert communication mess.

My hubby was right the whole time. If this kind of thing is happening, church leaders have much more to worry about than my lame covert chastisements and highly misguided attempts to help them.

Open communication or no communication. Always keep communication in the light. There is too much room for perversion otherwise.

 

[HappyHope]

Found another church in league with this stuff. Makes me want to throw up. I figure we’ll attend as shadows only unless they clean house. God’s will in this situation. I’m all about overlooking faults but there comes a point...

 

[Darkhorse]

Found another church in league with this stuff. Makes me want to throw up. I figure we’ll attend as shadows only unless they clean house. God’s will in this situation. I’m all about overlooking faults but there comes a point...

Sounds like these churches want to play God...