Morality of Church Keylogging

[Hazelelponi]

I think we had a woman on here concerned that her Pastor had done just that. He'd gotten ahold of everyone's phones, returned them, and then mysteriously began preaching on exactly what parishioners had been discussing at home and / or searching for on their phones. And claiming that God had given him prophetic insight, rather than admitting to hacking / spying on their devices. It was creepy.

I wouldn't hand my phone over to anyone for an hour... and anyone who would is a bit lax on their own security.

I mean, if pastors are requesting people turn over their electronic equipment for membership then that's a sure sign of a cult, not a church.

There's a difference that's not even subtle between the two things - church verses cult.

Not one person has ever asked me to hand over my phone for any length of time for any reason.

 

[Lady Donna Marie]

[QUOTE="HappyHope, post:

Dear Happy Hope,

So I guess this is considered ease dropping or spying... I think I'd take to little country church and doesn't have enough money to purchase such things and is more interested in saving the souls of its congregation then wanting to know everything one is doing. I seems to me to be a control game that can go south really quickly and instead of bringing us closer to Christ it could take some down.

We live in a world where technology can be used for the good or bad for however we let it. To lift up or take down.

This crossed my mind one day that when our generations of social media fans enter heaven we could be standing around talking face to face to those that we have never met in person while on this earth and talked to them as if we have known them for years. I can just imagine an Old Testament guy over hearing our conversation of a bunch of social media fans saying,

Oh, hi Joe! It's so nice to finally meet you after all these years! The Old Testament guy is scratching his head, mmmm, you have never met and know his name... So the Old Testament guy comes over and joins in the conversation and asks.

So how did you all meet each other?

Social media fans reply, on social media.

Old Testament guy, social what???

Yes, we chat with people on a computer or our phones from across the world. I live in the United States and I can chat to someone in Ireland.

Old Testament guy, what's the United States? Ireland? What's a computer and a phone???

Social media fans, well the good news is we eternity to explain all of this to you.


That is how far technology has come to the point that it not only is helpful to some degree, but even harmful if used for the wrong reasons that don't edify one's life and others.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...

 

[pleinmont]

If anyone asked me for my phone I would tell them NO!

 

[Hazelelponi]

It does if they pay for it.

I don't know about your church, but mine brings in just barely over 4,000 dollars a month in tithes and offerings.

That money has to sustain the upkeep of the church building and vehicle, pay the utilities etc on the building, pay the pastor a salary, provide learning materials for the classes and pay for the various outreach efforts and charitable engagements in which the church is involved.

Doesn't leave anything leftover to pay hackers to find out what most people display publicly for all and sundry to read...

The church I attend is more typical of the American church than those few mega churches people love to complain about. The majority of churches in America (and throughout the world) are operating on very limited budgets.

As I said earlier, if people are handing over their electronic devices to their church by the demand of church leadership then they are inside a cult, not a church.

Churches are a community of believers, who don't need to hack the computers of their members, and wouldn't have any reason to.

Cults operate on a different level than churches, as they are always power brokers who seek control of their followers.

 

[Josheb]

Morality of Church Keylogging....

Here's how this should work scripturally:

The keylogging should be made known beforehand, along with its goals, uses, and limits so both employer and employee know what's expected. This is called a "contract" or "covenant." Scripture is real big on agreement and unity and making such things known. The church's computers are private property (even if deemed God's property) so it is not the employees' property to do with as they please. This is especially true for computers used on church grounds by church staff while working during hired hours.

Romans 13:1-5 ESV
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience."​

Church leaders and congregant struggles are issues completely separate from the existence of keyloggers. The abuse of keyloggers is a symptom of problem completely different from the existence of keyloggers and proper use should not be conflated with misuse or abuse of software or misuse or abuse of employees and congregants.

 

[FriendlyToast]

**Update/Clarification: This includes home networks unconnected to church networks except when tithing online.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. You'd need to install a program for the church to be able to track you. You'd know because you'd have to give the program permission to be installed on your computer.

Now, there seems to be confusion. Yes, your data can be stolen online. Yes, there is identity theft. Yes, Google tracks pretty much everything you do online. (Bought up multiple times in the thread)

These are different scenarios. A key logger logs every stroke on your keyboard (and some software even track the mouse movements), the information Google, Facebook etc has about you is based on what you provide it!

When you search for new shoes, Google knows, because you used Google to find shoes! That's not unethical or hacking or anything related. That's you making use of Google's services.

You can even check your own location history using Google Maps: Sign in - Google Accounts but your church does not have access to this.

Google, Amazon, Netflix, Facebook etc keep this data known as search history and through time builds up a profile about you. See this link for some scary stuff: Clicking this link lets you see what Google thinks it knows about you based on your search history — and some of its predictions are eerily accurate

Browsers use a technology called cookies. Websites can share cookies. This is how Google knows you went to Facebook and how Facebook knows you went to a blog about shoes.

How does identity theft occur? That's you going to dodgy websites and giving your information away on the Internet without care.

Unless the church makes you install software on your computer, they're not tracking you.

 

[durangodawood]

I think we had a woman on here concerned that her Pastor had done just that. He'd gotten ahold of everyone's phones, returned them, and then mysteriously began preaching on exactly what parishioners had been discussing at home and / or searching for on their phones. And claiming that God had given him prophetic insight, rather than admitting to hacking / spying on their devices. It was creepy.

 

[HARK!]

Google tracks pretty much everything you do online.

This is why I use Duckduckgo.com; and I have Google blocked on my script blocker. My taste in shoes is none of Google's business.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

shalom

 

[Hazelelponi]

NOT ALL groups pay for the surveillance of their members or employees.
Some do not even know about this, nor attempt this.
Others do.
Others do not have to pay for it. It is given to them.
Others do not even know it is being done TO them.

I find unsubstantiated claims of criminal activity by "churches" at large against church membership in and of itself defamation of character.

"This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." " 2 Corinthians 13:1

So, before blanket accusations are made, give proof. Give witnesses to the events - 2 or 3.

And then, with proof and witnesses, establish why we can blanket accuse all or most or many churches because of an activity of one?

Then we can speak again. Fear mongering isn't the Lord's work, we have proof before an accusation. The only accusation I've seen any validity to at all cannot be used against any church organization but hers, and even then it's not with multiple witnesses or any proof whatsoever. .

As Christians, we shouldn't warn people away from church attendance or to fear church.

However, if anyone wishes to educate others about personal security of/on their electronics then by all means do, but why don't we try avoiding unfounded accusations against those who are, for all you know, your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Anything else is slander, backbiting and gossip, if the Bible is to be believed.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I can see pros and cons

I see nothing but a con.

Aren't key loggers sneaked into our PC without our knowledge, piggy backing in downloads or email and for the purpose of getting banking info and such?

Even if that's not what they'r after I would think it would be a serious legal offense as in, invasion of privacy, if nothing else.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I find unsubstantiated claims of criminal activity by "churches" at large against church membership in and of itself defamation of character.

"This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." " 2 Corinthians 13:1

So, before blanket accusations are made, give proof. Give witnesses to the events - 2 or 3.

And then, with proof and witnesses, establish why we can blanket accuse all or most or many churches because of an activity of one?

Then we can speak again. Fear mongering isn't the Lord's work, we have proof before an accusation. The only accusation I've seen any validity to at all cannot be used against any church organization but hers, and even then it's not with multiple witnesses or any proof whatsoever. .

As Christians, we shouldn't warn people away from church attendance or to fear church.

However, if anyone wishes to educate others about personal security of/on their electronics then by all means do, but why don't we try avoiding unfounded accusations against those who are, for all you know, your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Anything else is slander, backbiting and gossip, if the Bible is to be believed.

@Hazelelponi Good, Biblical point about everything needing to be substantiated by 2 or 3 witnesses.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

shalom

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

shalom

 

[Hazelelponi]

No. This is unsubstantiated on your part , or willingly being blind to what's going on.

============================
Again, from you, as you put it, more unsubstantiated claims.

The entire accusation of the thread, and indeed your accusation as well, (and this is an accusation) is that "churches" are hacking the personal computers of church members and installing keyloggers on them.

Your proof can't be mysterious nameless faceless identify theft in the world.

Just because there are thieves and hackers in the world does nothing to substantiate the outlandish claim that Christian churches are engaging in this activity.

In order to accuse your brethren of criminal activity, you must have proof your brethren are engaging in the same criminal activity your accusing them of.

If I say "hey jeff, you've committed a crime" Your response would be "I'm innocent until proven guilty, where's your proof I've done this evil thing?"

If I then turn around and point to random crimes by varying criminal elements unrelated to YOU, you'd be free to accuse me of false accusing you. And you'd be correct to do so.

Your not guilty of the crime of promoting pornography just because you own a computer, anymore than "churches" are guilty of "identify theft, hacking, and installing key loggers onto the personal computers of their members" just because they may have a website and email parishioners to inform them of upcoming church events from time to time.

SO GET A LIST TOGETHER COMPLETE WITH PROOF of all the many churches that have done this, before making accusations.

Actually being a Christian and living according to the principles laid out in the Bible isnt meaningless in my Christian walk... and this thread is in Ethics and Morality after all.

Good day.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

shalom

 

[Hazelelponi]

FROM THE OP:

I have come across churches using keylogging not just for those in church leadership or their volunteers but for regular church attenders.

**Update/Clarification: This includes home networks unconnected to church networks except when tithing online.

JEFF'S response when someone asked for proof churches were doing this:

It may be quite common where there are associations of pastors/ churches/ in many cities.
In Tulsa there may be 120 churches all 'sold' on the idea of keylogging, going along with it because it is the thing to do within the organization/ collaboration of <worldly?> churches/ and other associations / agencies , etc....

Followed by further and ever further accusations of church wrong doing:

"seems like" churches are not what Scripture says, per se.

When they are run like a worldly business, for profit and all, suspicious and /or with secrets (like sexual activities) they want to keep secret,
then nothing stops them from doing as the world does.

there's no need to continue on, everyone is free to read the thread.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

....