Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

[Gregorikos]

Adam - Eve & the Serpent all had different consequences. Adam had to do with the sweat of his brow (Genesis 3:17) Eve had to do with "childbirth" (vs 16) The serpent had to do with eating dust (vs 15)

The point is, Adam sinned too. And his sin was worse. So it makes no sense to saddle Eve and all her daughters for time immemorial for sinning in the Garden and letting men off Scott free.

And doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin? That's what I heard...

 

[Tigger45]

Romans 16:7 refers to the apostles Andronicus and Junia, the Apostle says they are "well known among the apostles".

Here is what the great preacher St. John Chrysostom has to say in his homilies from Romans,

"Then another praise besides. 'Who are of note among the Apostles.' And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even among these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! How great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! But even here he does not stop, but adds another encomium besides, and says, 'Who were also in Christ before me.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 31 on Romans

Chrysostom sees throughout these greetings the immense praise and honor being bestowed upon the people mentioned (the word encomium refers to a kind of speech which honors and praises another); and especially takes note of the women whom the Apostle honors here. The Apostles Andronicus and Junia, here, are likewise honored. Chrysostom takes note that here a woman is called apostle, and not only an apostle, but noteworthy, well respected and honored as one of the apostles.

I refer here to John Chrysostom's commentary simply to pre-emptively refute the possible charge that the reading of Junia as an apostle is somehow a "modern" thing; her apostleship is well known in antiquity.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow, great find! Thx for sharing Crypto

 

[joshua 1 9]

And doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin? That's what I heard...

Yes we are no longer under a curse. That is a free gift. Only we still suffer not for our-self but for the redemption of the world: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17) We want to take as much with us to Heaven as we can.

 

[bekkilyn]

It's pretty simple really...

I have been married 35 years and my wife and I enjoy a joint ministry.

We take what we believe to be the scriptural approach to marriage in that we are equal partners with different gifts. We believe God has given me the gift of servant leadership. Almost all of the time we are in unity and agreement but if we differ she will willingly without compulsion defer to my call on the matter. She knows that He will correct me double quick if I get it wrong. She sees me as having authority and responsibility and headship in the marriage. Her input is paramount, with this we are a complete unit together. There is a high level of trust going on.

She is a fiery individual not a 'passive' subordinate.

Now we had close friends who operated in a similar way, however the wife took the role of pastor in their church.
With this new role they were faced with how authority should work in the family. Was He to defer to her in all matters now that she had assumed a 'higher spiritual rank'? How was it meant to work?

Now see in an egalitarian marriage, none of this would have been an issue because neither of them would be concerned with rank, but would instead be concerned with how to best work as a team as God intended and thus divide up responsibilities according to each person's unique gifts and expertise. It is unreasonable (putting it lightly) to expect that anyone defer to any other person (even a pastor) in ALL matters. Any human being, including a pastor, is unworthy of such unwavering devotion and loyalty. Such belongs only to God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Now see in an egalitarian marriage, none of this would have been an issue because neither of them would be concerned with rank, but would instead be concerned with how to best work as a team as God intended and thus divide up responsibilities according to each person's unique gifts and expertise. It is unreasonable (putting it lightly) to expect that anyone defer to any other person (even a pastor) in ALL matters. Any human being, including a pastor, is unworthy of such unwavering devotion and loyalty. Such belongs only to God.

Well in the deliverance ministry understanding authority and rank in the spiritual realm is critical.

We are clearly poles apart in our world view so best to focus on the authority of scripture that He might hone our understanding.

 

[Gregorikos]

The Greek kephalē 'Head' certainly does carry the meaning of having authority.

I don't believe it does. The Septuagint gives overwhelming evidence that kephalé doesn't refer to authority.

The Hebrew word for head, rosh, did carry the meaning of authority. And of the 595 time rosh appeared in the Old Testament, 180 times it referred to authority. The Septuagint translators very uniformly translated rosh as kephalé EXCEPT those times when head referred to authority, which was 180 times. In about 170 (95%) of those cases, the translators switched to a different word, one that did mean authority but didnt mean head. This shows an extreme aversion in the part of the LXX translators to use kephalé in a passage where it would refer to authority.

The Liddell Scott Jones lexicon lists over twenty metaphorical meanings for kephalé, and nothing resembling authority is listed.

 

[Gregorikos]

I would have expected (from posts in the past) you not to make this kind of mistaken comparison.

Paidiske made an excellent comparison. You see the same thing in Hebrew, where the word for head is 'rosh.'

Have you ever heard of the Hebrew New Year, Rosh Hashana? That means, "The Head of the Year."

 

[Paidiske]

I have emphatically not promoted domination.

You might not recognise it as domination, but promoting a situation where a woman is expected to - how did you put it - see men as having authority and responsibility and headship in marriage, and willingly defer to the man's call; promoting that as the ideal is promoting domination.

Regarding your calling I have taken the Romans 14 position and not been your judge.
Your walk is nothing to do with me, it is between you and God.

Your claim that I am trying to deny you anything is sheer nonsense.

You've made it very clear that you believe women in leadership positions in the Church are in the wrong, and damaging to their own households.

I had hoped we could explore the topic without personal accusations.

Don't you understand? Raising the topic in this way is making a personal accusation. You have, in effect, accused every woman in ministry, and every egalitarian, of going against God's will.

we should make room for each others opinions in love.

Sure. But you put it up in General Theology for debate, you can also expect critical engagement.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>>Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Ah... pasting the url/link/verse comes out like that, again.

imbedded in the above link is the url reference > https: // biblehub . com/ romans/16-7 . htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Of note among the apostles.--An ambiguous expression, which might mean, and, judging by the word alone, would perhaps more naturally be taken to mean, "distinguished as Apostles themselves." This sense is not to be disregarded as absolutely impossible, for the title "Apostles" does not appear to have been limited to the Twelve. It is decidedly more probable that James, the Lord's brother, who is called an Apostle in Galatians 1:19, and elsewhere, was not identical with James the son of Alphaeus. And, however this may be, there can be no question about Barnabas, who is called an Apostle in Acts 14:14. St. Paul himself seems to draw a distinction between "the Twelve" and "all the Apostles," in 1Corinthians 15:7. Still, on the whole, it seems best to suppose that the phrase "of note among the Apostles" means, "highly esteemed by the apostolic circle.""

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The point is, Adam sinned too. And his sin was worse. So it makes no sense to saddle Eve and all her daughters for time immemorial for sinning in the Garden and letting men off Scott free.

And doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin? That's what I heard...

"heard" ? Where ?

 

[Gregorikos]

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

"Of note among the apostles.--An ambiguous expression, which might mean, and, judging by the word alone, would perhaps more naturally be taken to mean, "distinguished as Apostles themselves." This sense is not to be disregarded as absolutely impossible, for the title "Apostles" does not appear to have been limited to the Twelve. It is decidedly more probable that James, the Lord's brother, who is called an Apostle in Galatians 1:19, and elsewhere, was not identical with James the son of Alphaeus. And, however this may be, there can be no question about Barnabas, who is called an Apostle in Acts 14:14. St. Paul himself seems to draw a distinction between "the Twelve" and "all the Apostles," in 1Corinthians 15:7. Still, on the whole, it seems best to suppose that the phrase "of note among the Apostles" means, "highly esteemed by the apostolic circle.""

I don't know what you quoted there since you didnt provide a reference, but it makes no difference to me. This verse has a long and sordid history in the hands of translators and commentators who didn't want to accept what it plainly says. So they either made it Junias, a man who was an apostle, or if they admitted it was a woman, they made her someone the apostles knew well. If you see the whole story, their dishonesty is plain.

John Chrysostom knew what she was. He was Bishop of Constantinople. That's in Greece in case you weren't sure. And about 300 years after Paul wrote Roman's. I'm pretty sure he knew of what he spoke.

 

[Gregorikos]

"heard" ? Where ?

1 John 1:7 (NRSV)
but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You see the same thing in Hebrew, where the word for head is 'rosh.'

"KJV Translation Count — Total: 76x
The KJV translates Strong's G2776 in the following manner: head (76x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church

of things: the corner stone"



Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1 John 1:7 (NRSV)
but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Notice the "if".
i.e. not everyone.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't know what you quoted there since you didnt provide a reference, but it makes no difference to me.

I thought I posted the url separately in the post , but just now checked and simply clicked on the verse - it is and goes to Bible Hub.

Your explanation is not (does not seem to me enough nor) satisfactory nor good enough reason to dismiss it.

 

[bekkilyn]

Well in the deliverance ministry understanding authority and rank in the spiritual realm is critical.

We are clearly poles apart in our world view so best to focus on the authority of scripture that He might hone our understanding.

My world view is based on the authority of scripture.

 

[Albion]

John Chrysostom knew what she was. He was Bishop of Constantinople. That's in Greece in case you weren't sure.

Constantinople (now Istanbul) is in Turkey, not Greece.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wow, great find! Thx for sharing Crypto

The Greek text does not say Junia (feminine) but Junias (masculine)...

 

[Carl Emerson]

My world view is based on the authority of scripture.

Yes that is the best approach.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You've made it very clear that you believe women in leadership positions in the Church are in the wrong, and damaging to their own households.

I have said no such thing, you can't seem to resist misrepresenting me.