Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

Carl Emerson

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.
 
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Steve97

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

I you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

This is one issue I have thought about over the years. He could have asked fifty ...12 chose to follow. I honestly don't know.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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Some actually say Mary Magdalene was an Apostle; either way, it seems as though Jesus favored her highly. There was another possible female apostle named Junia(rumor has it that her name was changed to 'Junias' in order to insinuate she was actually male).
 
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PloverWing

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The Bible does not tell us why the 12 were all men. "Culturally appropriate" is one good guess. Note that if we go beyond the 12, several women are listed among Jesus' disciples (in the sense of devoted followers and students of Jesus): most notably, Mary and Martha of Bethany, Mary Magdalene, and the women who were at the cross and the tomb. Cleopas' companion at Emmaus is not named, but may also have been female, if they were a married couple. Mary and Martha seemed to have provided a home base for Jesus when he was travelling; they may not have had the freedom to walk the countryside with Jesus, but Jesus and the 12 must have had to eat and sleep somewhere, and we see Martha preparing dinner for Jesus while Mary sits at Jesus' feet in the manner that a student/disciple would have done.
 
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Charlie24

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Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

I you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

I should keep my mouth shut and pretend I never saw this thread.

But I'm hoping those that love the Lord and His word will at least understand my position.

1Tim. 2:12-14
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I have read behind theologians that say the woman is not only the weaker vessel in physical form, but also in being deceived and mental strength.

I know this is not popular in today's society. But I do believe God chose men and still chooses men to lead.

God never changes, the same God that created Adam is the same God that looks over us. We change in many ways but He doesn't.

If you disagree, I understand and will not argue.
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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I should keep my mouth shut and pretend I never saw this thread.

But I'm hoping those that love the Lord and His word will at least understand my position.

1Tim. 2:12-14
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I have read behind theologians that say the woman is not only the weaker vessel in physical form, but also in being deceived and mental strength.

I know this is not popular in today's society. But I do believe God chose men and still chooses men to lead.

God never changes, the same God that created Adam is the same God that looks over us. We change in many ways but He doesn't.

If you disagree, I understand and will not argue.

Somebody probably should've told that to Priscilla when she was instructing Apollos with her husband.
 
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Charlie24

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Never said God doesn't use women behind the scenes. He's done it many times then and now.

In fact I know of several cases where the woman has no choice but to take the spiritual lead in the home. This is acceptable and honorable before the Lord.
 
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Andrewn

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1Tim. 2:12-14
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
This is a mistranslation.

1Ti 2:12 I don’t allow a wife to teach or to control her husband. Instead, she should be a quiet listener.

After the Lord's resurrection there were 120 persons in the upper room and clearly some of them were women. Still, the Lord selected only 12 men in his inner circle and no doubt this was for cultural reason. Let's face it, until recent advancements in technology, most occupations had to be performed by men.
 
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Carl Emerson

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In fact I know of several cases where the woman has no choice but to take the spiritual lead in the home. This is acceptable and honorable before the Lord.

In such cases my church would appoint an elder to support.
 
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paul1149

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In fact I know of several cases where the woman has no choice but to take the spiritual lead in the home. This is acceptable and honorable before the Lord.
I agree, and I suppose we can apply that to the ecclesia as well.

I find it hard, though, to get around the Pauline scriptures and the example Jesus left us. On a purely random basis, the chances of all 12 apostles being male is one in 4096. If you factor Mathias, Judas' replacement in, the chances of 13 being all male is one in 8192.

I will admit, though, that I am not entirely comfortable with my position. This is something I don't have a lot of peace on yet.
 
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JackRT

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The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that it emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I agree, and I suppose we can apply that to the ecclesia as well.

I find it hard, though, to get around the Pauline scriptures and the example Jesus left us. On a purely random basis, the chances of all 12 apostles being male is one in 4096. If you factor Mathias, Judas' replacement in, the chances of 13 being all male is one in 8192.

I will admit, though, that I am not entirely comfortable with my position. This is something I don't have a lot of peace on yet.

There are at least another three named...
 
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When we begin to think that Jesus, God in the flesh, felt required to conform to social convention...we are in trouble. It may start with a simple question like the one here, but of course it could (and ultimately would) apply as easily to all sorts of other decisions he made.

Leaving aside the fact that God is not constrained by such social norms, what we see in the New Testament is that Jesus defied all sorts of social and Hebraic conventions more or less constantly. And he was often called on it by critics, too!

So we either have to conclude that singling out one event for questioning is arbitrary, or else conclude that, no, he certainly did not operate that way, knuckling under to cultural mandates, and the like.

But also, if we do look at just the matter of the 12 Apostles, and them being all men, the argument is weak at best since Jesus DID have close associates who were women...but, importantly, not among the 12 Apostles.

What's more, the first Christians put women in a number of leadership roles in the churches except not as bishops, presbyters/elders, or deacons. It is illogical then to argue that the church -- and Christ himself -- were forced to conform to social convention but only in this one regard (the 12 Apostles).
 
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Carl Emerson

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Jesus himself seems to have been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends.

If He was 'gender blind' why did He appoint 12 men?
 
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paul1149

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There are at least another three named...
What does that mean? There were 12 "apostle" apostles, 13 including Matthias, 14 including Paul. There is a broader use of the term 'apostle' which brings more into the fold, but they are not of the Twelve and do not affect the steep probabilities I cited.
 
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