Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

[Carl Emerson]

Not a scriptural analogy since the word translated as "head" is not about rulership and under the new covenant, each person, male and female, will be held accountable for their own sins. There is nothing under the new covenant that other people will be accountable on our behalf save for Jesus Christ.

The word "Adam" also means "humankind" and not just a reference to an individual male person.

The Greek kephalē 'Head' certainly does carry the meaning of having authority.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Greek kephalē 'Head' certainly does carry the meaning of having authority.

Even more emphatically,
Jesus compares or rather states that Jesus IS head of man, as man IS head of woman.

This is in Perfect Harmony with ALL of God's Word.

 

[Paidiske]

The Greek kephalē 'Head' certainly does carry the meaning of having authority.

That is dependent on context, and disputed in this instance.

For example, we might talk about the "head" of a stream (the source), but nobody would suggest that it has authority over the rest of the river.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is dependent on context, and disputed in this instance.

For example, we might talk about the "head" of a stream (the source), but nobody would suggest that it has authority over the rest of the river.

I would have expected (from posts in the past) you not to make this kind of mistaken comparison.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm certainly assuming that you can't discern someone's gifts based on their gender. The Holy Spirit doesn't have a neatly blue-and-pink colour coded gifting system.



And yet here you are arguing for a form of domination, by denying women equal participation in leadership.



Where in Scripture does it say that the husband will be held accountable for his wife's choices and actions?

Repeatedly during this conversation my position has been second guessed and I have been accused of promoting 'domination' I have repeatedly said this is not so and stand by that. It seems folks roll out stock answers that are designed to discredit those who have a different opinion. This is not a fruitful game and is rather dishonouring of others.

To suggest I discern gifts based on gender is nonsense.

I am not into domination or denying women of anything that God wants for them.

I made it clear that sin came into the word through one man, not a man and a woman. This is a clear case of God holding Adam responsible as head of the marriage. Adam was not the first to sin.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is dependent on context, and disputed in this instance.

For example, we might talk about the "head" of a stream (the source), but nobody would suggest that it has authority over the rest of the river.

It is folly to prove the meaning of a word from another meaning of the same word.

 

[Paidiske]

Repeatedly during this conversation my position has been second guessed and I have been accused of promoting 'domination' I have repeatedly said this is not so and stand by that. It seems folks roll out stock answers that are designed to discredit those who have a different opinion. This is not a fruitful game and is rather dishonouring of others.

....

I am not into domination or denying women of anything that God wants for them.

We are accusing you of promoting domination because you want to exclude women from leadership in the church and the home. That is male domination, and it doesn't work to try to claim otherwise.

God has called me to be a priest. You are saying that it is wrong for me to be a priest, because in your view only men can be. That is you trying to deny me my God-given vocation.

It's that blatantly obvious and personal.

The case of Adam and Eve does not suggest that every husband is responsible for every choice his wife makes.

 

[Paidiske]

It is folly to prove the meaning of a word from another meaning of the same word.

But you're deciding that it's "another" meaning, rather than that my suggestion is closer to the intended meaning here.

 

[Greengardener]

Perhaps the best know woman who obeyed the Creator Yahweh in the last hundred years was
Corrie ten Boom.
She obeyed, and shared her testimony, without disobeying (and if ever she sinned, she repented, Scripturally, as she was a woman of prayer and close fellowship with Jesus and with the Father in heaven all of her life) .
Men and woman ought to do likewise. Pray constantly. This is required, not optional, to walk with Jesus and to abide in Him in the Father.

Just the other day I found my old copy of her book, The Hiding Place, and remember when it was first published. I took it out of the box for a re-read. I found her testimony to be encouraging when I was a younger believer, as it was a life lived through the trial of her faith.

 

[bekkilyn]

The Greek kephalē 'Head' certainly does carry the meaning of having authority.

The Greek word for authority is Αρχή as he would have used if talking about authority or rulership, but in talking about the parts of the body in the context of what it means of Christ being the head of the church, it is that Christ is the beginning of the church. It's all about beginnings and not about who gets to dominate who for all of eternity.

 

[PloverWing]

One thing I have noticed is that when a married woman takes a pastoral role in the church there is confusion regarding leadership in the family.

You say this is something you've noticed, so I assume you have some particular experiences in mind. What experiences did you have with female members of the clergy in your church, and how did you see it affecting their families negatively?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You say this is something you've noticed, so I assume you have some particular experiences in mind. What experiences did you have with female members of the clergy in your church, and how did you see it affecting their families negatively?

Qurg dwq wzxworuiba ,,, iioa
With few exceptions ... oops (keyboard shifted : ) )
What I saw, experienced, tested, as much as possible,
or was revealed from and by Yahweh's Ruah,
if indeed from Him,
is that woman in positions Yahweh did not appoint them to,
just also like men in positions Yahweh did not appoint them to ,
make continual mistakes, errors, wrong judgments, and remain in a broken fellowship , apart from Yahweh, until they turn back to Yahweh in repentance, humbly, and obey Him, doing what He Says, as He Says.

 

[bekkilyn]

Repeatedly during this conversation my position has been second guessed and I have been accused of promoting 'domination' I have repeatedly said this is not so and stand by that. It seems folks roll out stock answers that are designed to discredit those who have a different opinion. This is not a fruitful game and is rather dishonouring of others.

To suggest I discern gifts based on gender is nonsense.

I am not into domination or denying women of anything that God wants for them.

I made it clear that sin came into the word through one man, not a man and a woman. This is a clear case of God holding Adam responsible as head of the marriage. Adam was not the first to sin.

God clearly held the woman accountable for her sin as well as he held the man accountable for his sin. Sin came into the world through humanity, i.e. Adam, which means "humankind" as well as "a man". Humankind includes both males and females. We are each individually accountable for our own actions and cannot pass them off onto others as both Adam and Eve attempted to do...Eve blaming the serpent and Adam blaming both the woman and God.

 

[bekkilyn]

But you're deciding that it's "another" meaning, rather than that my suggestion is closer to the intended meaning here.

But come on, we have to pick the questionable and dubious meaning that does the most amount of harm to the most amount of people, and the more it contradicts the rest of scripture and Christ's gospel message, the better!

 

[Carl Emerson]

We are accusing you of promoting domination because you want to exclude women from leadership in the church and the home. That is male domination, and it doesn't work to try to claim otherwise.

God has called me to be a priest. You are saying that it is wrong for me to be a priest, because in your view only men can be. That is you trying to deny me my God-given vocation.

It's that blatantly obvious and personal.

The case of Adam and Eve does not suggest that every husband is responsible for every choice his wife makes.

I haven't said anything of the sort.

I have emphatically not promoted domination.

Regarding your calling I have taken the Romans 14 position and not been your judge.
Your walk is nothing to do with me, it is between you and God.

Your claim that I am trying to deny you anything is sheer nonsense.

I had hoped we could explore the topic without personal accusations.

I raised the topic of the 12 men because I figured we could learn a lot together considering it.

I have done my best to take a scriptural position and if that offends, don't blame me...

You are in dialogue by your own choice, we should make room for each others opinions in love.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So did he, so same consequences.

Adam - Eve & the Serpent all had different consequences. Adam had to do with the sweat of his brow (Genesis 3:17) Eve had to do with "childbirth" (vs 16) The serpent had to do with eating dust (vs 15)

 

[Carl Emerson]

You say this is something you've noticed, so I assume you have some particular experiences in mind. What experiences did you have with female members of the clergy in your church, and how did you see it affecting their families negatively?

It's pretty simple really...

I have been married 35 years and my wife and I enjoy a joint ministry.

We take what we believe to be the scriptural approach to marriage in that we are equal partners with different gifts. We believe God has given me the gift of servant leadership. Almost all of the time we are in unity and agreement but if we differ she will willingly without compulsion defer to my call on the matter. She knows that He will correct me double quick if I get it wrong. She sees me as having authority and responsibility and headship in the marriage. Her input is paramount, with this we are a complete unit together. There is a high level of trust going on.

She is a fiery individual not a 'passive' subordinate.

Now we had close friends who operated in a similar way, however the wife took the role of pastor in their church.
With this new role they were faced with how authority should work in the family. Was He to defer to her in all matters now that she had assumed a 'higher spiritual rank'? How was it meant to work?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Greek word for authority is Αρχή as he would have used if talking about authority or rulership, but in talking about the parts of the body in the context of what it means of Christ being the head of the church, it is that Christ is the beginning of the church. It's all about beginnings and not about who gets to dominate who for all of eternity.

I would have to ask our Greek scholars on CF to speak into this. Again your choice of the word dominate does not help the conversation. We are talking of servant leadership.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again that's a fallacy of composition. Not all leaders are apostles. But in fact there was a woman apostle. (Romans 16:7)

Where does scripture say the Junias was in fact a woman?

The church father Origen (died A.D. 252) referred to Junias as a man (MPG 14: 1289), and the early church historian Epiphanius (died A.D. 403) explicitly uses a masculine pronoun of Junias and seems to have specific information about him when he says that "Junias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria" (Index disciplulorum 125.19- 20).

 

[Gregorikos]

Where does scripture say the Junias was in fact a woman?

Junias as a man's name is only theoretical. It has never been discovered that such a name was ever used. Junia as a woman's name was common. That may by why John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople (c. AD 349 – 407) , said of Junia:

“’Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . distinguished among the apostles.’ To be apostles is a great thing, but to be distinguished among them—consider what an extraordinary accolade that is! They were distinguished because of their works and because of their upright deeds. Indeed, how great was the wisdom of this woman that she was thought worthy of being called an apostle!”