What About Dinosaurs?

[Ricky M]

Your point seemed to be that the Bible is backed by science (at least creation from nothing?) and therefore not a myth. But science does not support the rest of it. So your point fails.

My point was that conflict between science and scripture depends on how they are presented. If you look for conflict you will find it. If you look for similarities, you'll find that too.

 

[chilehed]

So, it's your position that unless a written treatise concerning historical events discusses a matter through these fields of study, then the claims made by such a document are not to be trusted...

That's an amazing bit of made- up nonsense. Truly legendary! You turned "don't take something to mean what it doesn't" into "don't take something to mean what it does"!!

The topic of the sacred texts is "why people are so messed up and what God is doing about it". The topic is not "what physical processes did God use to create the universe and how long did it take".

BTW, are you from S. Florida? I grew up a few miles from MIA.

 

[Isilwen]

Fine , show me evidence of dinosaur fossil at least 70% of it

I don't expect a reply cuz there is none and you will not find it but you made a claim so burden of proof is on you

@LiquidCat

Blind Post...

A Dinosaur So Well Preserved, It Looks Like a Statue

Excavators had already smashed through the animal’s tail and rear end, which were permanently lost. But most of the creature was still there, and even then, it was clear that it had rare features like fossilized skin.

 

[miamited]

That's an amazing bit of made- up nonsense. Truly legendary! You turned "don't take something to mean what it doesn't" into "don't take something to mean what it does"!!

The topic of the sacred texts is "why people are so messed up and what God is doing about it". The topic is not "what physical processes did God use to create the universe and how long did it take".

BTW, are you from S. Florida? I grew up a few miles from MIA.

Hi chilehad,

You are, of course, free to see it however you see it, but my position remains the same that something being written as a text based on 'natural' science has no validity on the claims that are made. The claims made may be more simplistic than they would be if someone were to use 'natural' science to make similar claims, but the validity of any claims is not determined by 'how' the claim is made. The claim is either true or it is not.

When God's word says: "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." That claim is either true or it is not, no matter on what foundation or principles of study upon which that claim rests.

I contend that God wouldn't have written some 'natural' history treatise because His audience wouldn't have understood His position for at least another 5,000 years. God wrote a book and He wrote His book so that His people could understand what He was saying. He didn't write it so that some young college freshman 5,000 years later could understand it. Perhaps you might just consider the audience and their ability to understand the basic concepts that God used.

Yes, I lived some 30 years in the Homestead, Cutler Bay and Palmetto Bay areas. I retired here in SC at the ripe old age of 50 and am now just about ready to start drawing my SS and employer pension plan in the next couple of years.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

The topic of the sacred texts is "why people are so messed up and what God is doing about it". The topic is not "what physical processes did God use to create the universe and how long did it take".

Yes, the majority of the entirety of the Scriptures is about how messed up people are and what God is doing about it. But...

That isn't what all the 1,000 or so pages of writing, as we measure pages, is about. Pretty much all of the Pentateuch concerns historical narrative. Many biblical scholars believe that the first five books were written during the days of Moses and the Exodus out of Egypt. During that time, I believe through the Holy Spirit of God, just as Paul asserts, men were led by the Spirit to write down the oracles of God.

As to your claim that the topic in not "what physical processes God used", I am in complete agreement. As to your claim that it is not about "how long did it take", I am not. Three times in the whole of the Scriptures, God has the claim written down that He created all that is in 6 days. Now, I don't know what you consider to be an explanation of time, but 6 days is, to me, a length of time. Twice, God's word gives an accounting of years (another explanation of time) from one generation to the next. How anyone could have read the entirety of the Scriptures and not seen some explanations of time, is quite beyond me.

Now, does God's word go on for 37 paragraphs with pictures and drawings and equations to explain these passages of time? No!!! He just makes the claim that a certain amount of time passed during the creation event and He makes the claim of a certain amount of time passing from one generation to the next. They are very specific mentions of time and as for the six days, as I said, it is repeated at least twice more in God's accounting of historical facts.

Now, you are free to make the claim that God's word doesn't tell us how long it all took, but that would not be a true statement. I'm even smart enough to know that it isn't a true statement and it honestly throws serious doubt on your ability to be able to read and comprehend the things that God has told you. No one, with any understanding of language and communication, can honestly say that there is no explanation of time, as it passed in the beginning account of the Scriptures. They can say that the subject of the passing of the time described in the Scriptures is not what the gist of the Scriptures is about. But, they just can't say that there is no mention of time as it passed from the moment that God entered into this realm of His creating and the day in which we stand now some several thousand years later.

I know that God loves me and He wants me to understand just how important the choice I make in this life is. I know that He is impressing upon me that importance by assuring me that He did create all that is and the very fact that I have oxygen surrounding me to breath and continue my living on this earth is by His hand. That without Him there is no life. Not even for those who refuse Him His just place in their lives. After impressing me with that truth, He then wants me to know just how important it is one day, if not immediately today, that I choose to love Him who is the Creator of all things and who gives and sustains life. He wants me to be assured that none of this existence that I see around me came about by some 'natural' processes of the things that He made and that my future rests solely in His having mercy upon me because I have believed and trusted Him and repented of my sin.

God wants us to understand that none of this came about by any 'natural' processes. That just as the sea parted into a wide chasm because He commanded it to do so, despite all the 'natural' processes that would deny that a sea of water could do such a thing; that we also understand that none of the stars that we see in the night sky, and none of the physical properties of the earth came to be because of some 'natural' processes. God commanded, and things that were not...became!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[1213]

...which were all created recently in the creation week some thousand of years ago. ....

I believe creation happened as the Bible tells. And I believe also that it is possible it took only 144 hours. However, it is not said what was the length of a day then. Before there was sun, how was the length of a day measured? It is not told. But because the day length was not tied to sun, it is possible that it was much longer than 24 hours.

But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Pet. 3:8

Time is relative and we don’t really know how it was measured back in the days.

 

[miamited]

Hi 1213,

You responded and asked:

I believe creation happened as the Bible tells. And I believe also that it is possible it took only 144 hours. However, it is not said what was the length of a day then. Before there was sun, how was the length of a day measured? It is not told. But because the day length was not tied to sun, it is possible that it was much longer than 24 hours.

Let me ask you a question, if I may? How long is a day on the planet Venus? How is that determined?

You see, the sun and the moon have nothing whatsoever to do with the passing of a day or the length thereof. When you looked up the information concerning Venus, assuming that you did, did you read the explanation of how they had monitored when the light of the sun shone upon the face of the planet? When that light of the sun went down and created a dusk and came up on the horizon creating a dawn? I doubt it. What you read was how long it took for the planet Venus to make a full rotation upon its axis.

So, if God, on the day that He created the earth, created it spinning like a top on its axis just as it does today...then a day passed just as soon as it made one full rotation upon that axis. Just as you likely read about how they determined the length of the day on Venus.

Some say, well wait,wait! How could there be an evening and a morning without a sun and a moon? There!!! I got ya on that one, didn't I? No! Evening and morning are nothing more than equal divisions of the length of time of a day. Just as we still today call it a.m. and p.m. I'd challenge you to wake up, or stay awake tonight until 12:01 a.m. and look out your window and see if the sun is beginning to shine to let you know that you've now moved into the a.m. half of the day. Then when you're eating your lunch at noon, look at the sky again and notice how the sun is going down on the horizon as the telling of time then switches to the p.m. half of the day.

Now, it is readily admitted that our terms of a.m. and p.m. were established, sometime in the 1500's based on the sun being at the midpoint of the sky at noon, and so they are based on a reference to the sun, but God's evening and morning are just two halves of a day just as the a.m. and p.m. are also two halves of a day, but they are established on different criteria.

Further, even if we do allow that until the sun was set in the sky to establish the meridian point of noon, God's using evening and morning to define each day then becomes even more relevant to our question, because then the absolute only reason God would have said that there was an evening and a morning would be to impress upon us that, even though they didn't happen in the way that we account normal evenings and mornings, it was written for the sole purpose of us being able to use the terms to understand what God was meaning when He used the term 'day'.

So, there are answers to the questions.Questions that may be seen as contradictions to the issue. But there is not a single scientific definition of the length of a planetary day that allows that the rising or the setting of the sun has any value in determining that 'length'.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Isilwen]

Why are we straining at a gnat with this?

Believing in young earth or old earth, evolution, etc... Is not a salvation issue in the least.

 

[miamited]

Hi again 1213,

Finally, why would the length of a day in the creation week be different than the length of all the individual days thereafter? Is God, who created all that is, not able to do the majestic works that He claims to have done in the creation week not really able to do them in the span of a normal day?

As I explained above, it is my understanding of God's word, that it is God's attempt to reveal Himself to us. Therefore, God used the word 'day', knowing that we would understand what a 'day' is. That it is the span of time in which a planetary body makes a complete rotation upon its axis. Yes, once the sun was created, man's reference point of a 'day', before he might have known about the spinning of the planet, would have been the time between his getting up one morning and then getting up the next. That this ball of yellow light would traverse across the sky and then the stars would come out and then again the yellow ball of light would begin another trek across the sky. Each time the yellow ball of light came out, early man would have thought, "Oh another 'day' is beginning". But the yellow ball of light traversing the sky isn't really what created the span of time of the day. It was the rotation of the earth upon its axis that caused it to appear as the yellow ball of light traveled across the sky each day. The sun doesn't move! The sun doesn't keep time for us, as far daily hours and minutes. It is the apparent movement of the sun because of the spinning earth on its axis that keeps time for us during the day.

Just as a year is a fixed length of time and also has nothing to do with the sun, although the orbit of the earth is around the sun. The length of a year is determined by how long it takes the earth to make on complete orbit around the sun. Even if the sun were not at the center of our solar system, a year would pass every time the earth made a complete orbit on its planetary trajectory.

So God, wanting you and I to understand, when this battle of 'how long has this realm of His creating in which we live existed', caused to be written that it was created in six days and then counted off the years of life of the first generations up through Moses, just so you and I would have an answer to those questions. Then He caused the writer to define each of the days as consisting of an evening and a morning, not because He needed some filler words or thought that it might sound more poetic to say so, but because He wants you and I to know that they were pretty regular days just as we experience and have experienced for the years of our lives.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[chilehed]

That isn't what all the 1,000 or so pages of writing, as we measure pages, is about.

Given that you managed to turn the very simple and clear thing that I said into something complicated and obtuse that I did not say, I think it's reasonable for me to suspect your judgement in understanding what Sacred Scripture means.

 

[miamited]

Why are we straining at a gnat with this?

Believing in young earth or old earth, evolution, etc... Is not a salvation issue in the least.

Hi isiwen,

Maybe, maybe not. The whole of the Scriptures is about 'believing God'. Now, you have chosen that there are only certain things that God has told us that need to be believed. I don't honestly know that it's really all that simple. In the Revelation of Jesus, we read: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

If God did do what He says He has done in the time frame that His word makes the claim that He did it...and we don't believe it, does that make us unbelievers? If God did do what He says He has done in the time frame that His word makes the claim that He did it...but we tell others that isn't the truth of things because science tells us otherwise, does that make us liars?

Would it not be a sad state for a man to have spent his entire life declaring Jesus is Lord, only to find that there was a little matter of believing that should have been taken into account. Jesus spoke to his disciples at one point that on the day of God's judgment there were going to be many who will be turned away, even though they had proclaimed Jesus as Lord and done great and mighty deeds in his name. If these people had declared Jesus as Lord, and they had shown their allegiance to him by performing great and mighty deeds in his name, what was it about them that brought about their condemnation?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Given that you managed to turn the very simple and clear thing that I said into something complicated and obtuse that I did not say, I think it's reasonable for me to suspect your judgement in understanding what Sacred Scripture means.

Hi chilehed,

I'm certainly sorry if I did that. Perhaps you could show me exactly what you're referring to in that rebuke.

Here's the complete copy of your post:
That's an amazing bit of made- up nonsense. Truly legendary! You turned "don't take something to mean what it doesn't" into "don't take something to mean what it does"!!

The topic of the sacred texts is "why people are so messed up and what God is doing about it". The topic is not "what physical processes did God use to create the universe and how long did it take".

BTW, are you from S. Florida? I grew up a few miles from MIA.

As far as I can tell, the only thing in it that addresses the issue is this: The topic of the sacred texts is "why people are so messed up and what God is doing about it". The topic is not "what physical processes did God use to create the universe and how long did it take".

The rest of it is another rebuke that I somehow misunderstood your previous post, and we can certainly get into that one also, if you'd like.

However, let's start with this simple one. Exactly how do you see that my response to your position about the sacred texts, is complicated and obtuse? I believe, sincerely, that I addressed your position and I'm also quite at a loss as to why you would think that I don't understand what 'Sacred Scripture' means.

What does 'Sacred Scripture' mean to you? Your complaint sounds to me like just a way for you to refuse to address the points that I made. If that's the case, then so be it and you certainly don't owe me any explanation.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Isilwen]

If God did do what He says He has done in the time frame that His word makes the claim that He did it...and we don't believe it, does that make us unbelievers? If God did do what He says He has done in the time frame that His word makes the claim that He did it...but we tell others that isn't the truth of things because science tells us otherwise, does that make us liars?

No, I don't believe that makes us unbelievers or liars.

 

[miamited]

No, I don't believe that makes us unbelievers or liars.

Hi isilwen,

Ok. Are you able to offer any understanding of Jesus' words to his disciples and who the 'many' might be, as far as how they were determined to be condemned?

Here's the full quote from Matthew's account 7:22-23:
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

As Jesus explained, these people are literally calling him Lord in speaking to him. They have prophesied in his name and driven out demons and performed many miracles...in his name. Yet, Jesus turns them away. Why might you think he's going to do that? These people actually seem to profess and show more faith than I have in their ability to prophesy and drive out demons and perform other miracles.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi faith,

I'm sorry for now beginning to move this thread more towards the total creation event rather than just the specific question that you asked. Please accept my apology and I only hope that my words have found a tender heart. I believe that it is important, everything that we believe and know and understand about our God and Savior. Sometimes I allow that fervor to overtake my discussions.

I have always believed that Jesus meant it in the totality of all the Scriptures, when He proclaimed that God's word is truth!

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Isilwen]

Hi isilwen,

Ok. Are you able to offer any understanding of Jesus' words to his disciples and who the 'many' might be, as far as how they were determined to be condemned?

Here's the full quote from Matthew's account 7:22-23:
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

My understanding is that those are the people who Jesus himself didn't know. Yes, they did all those things in His name, but He still didn't know them.

Maybe this is a denominational issue at heart. I was raised as a cradle Catholic, left the Catholic church and am now looking hard at becoming Episcopalian. Neither of those denominations require you to believe either one way or the other. They also don't see it as a salvation issue.

So, I will leave it at that.

 

[coffee4u]

I believe creation happened as the Bible tells. And I believe also that it is possible it took only 144 hours. However, it is not said what was the length of a day then. Before there was sun, how was the length of a day measured? It is not told. But because the day length was not tied to sun, it is possible that it was much longer than 24 hours.

But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Pet. 3:8

Time is relative and we don’t really know how it was measured back in the days.

Well actually it does.

Hebrew like most languages has it's own way of being written. The Hebrew word yom translated into the English 'day' can mean more than one thing. Most times in the Bible it meant a literal 24 hour day but sometimes it meant something else.
In Genesis 1 the author (probably Moses) used a number of word combinations which another Hebrew reader understood to mean literal 24 hour days.
By combining the term 'evening' and 'morning' with a number 'first'. 'second' etc, this was only ever used to show a normal day.
You can find out more about this here: Does Genesis chapter 1 mean literal 24-hour days? | GotQuestions.org
The author intended these days to be taken literally and in fact, he emphasised it by repeating it six times over for emphasis.

Time was measured the same way as it is now, the creation week of 6 days +the day of rest is where our week comes from.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well actually it does.

Hebrew like most languages has it's own way of being written. The Hebrew word yom translated into the English 'day' can mean more than one thing. Most times in the Bible it meant a literal 24 hour day but sometimes it meant something else.
In Genesis 1 the author (probably Moses) used a number of word combinations which another Hebrew reader understood to mean literal 24 hour days.
By combining the term 'evening' and 'morning' with a number 'first'. 'second' etc, this was only ever used to show a normal day.
You can find out more about this here: Does Genesis chapter 1 mean literal 24-hour days? | GotQuestions.org
The author intended these days to be taken literally and in fact, he emphasised it by repeating it six times over for emphasis.

Time was measured the same way as it is now, the creation week of 6 days +the day of rest is where our week comes from.

God would be guilty of deception if His days were like or exactly the same as one of our literal days, I also suggest looking up the Hebrew words for morning and evening as well...

Or do you think one of God's days or an evening and morning for Him were dictated by the rising and setting of the Sun on the earth like ours are...?

Cause I guarantee you they are or were not, and His evenings and mornings were based on something much more different, etc...

Like the beginning and/or ending or concluding and/or starting or beginning of another, or is the marking of endings or beginnings, etc, of very long "ages", etc... certain kinds of things or creatures ruling, etc...

What is a day to or for God or a God anyway...? or what is or what marks an morning or evening for Him, etc...?

Cause it is not at all like ours are at all, etc...

And the Creation account and the order of life and the things described in them, go right in line with the way evolutionary theory says it all happened and/or came about, etc...

And I've said it before already, an entire Creation, multiple billions of years or more, from it's very starting or beginning to it's very ending is only a week to or for God, or to God, etc, seven days from it's very beginning to it's very ending, etc...

And we've been in day 6 for a very long time now, and day 7 is the age of the ruling and reigning of Christ on earth and the day of rest for the Father, until this Creation ends, when day 6 is concluded (finally) and day 7 which will also be a very long period of time begins, etc, and lasts until this creation is 100% totally and completely ended, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Zachm531]

One reason I believe but have some doubt about the bible is because man found dinosaur fossils and other things that confirm the Earth is older than the bible says. So if the bible is true, why doesn't it mention Dinosaurs? If it's true, then why does it say the earth is only thousands of years old?

How do we know that this dating is even accurate? We dont have a constant to test it against.

 

[coffee4u]

God would be guilty of deception if His days were like or exactly the same as one of our literal days, I also suggest looking up the Hebrew words for morning and evening as well...

Or do you think one of God's days or an evening and morning for Him were dictated by the rising and setting of the Sun on the earth like ours are...?

Cause I guarantee you they are or were not, and His evenings and mornings were based on something much more different, etc...

Like the beginning and/or ending or concluding and/or starting or beginning of another, or is the marking of endings or beginnings, etc, of very long "ages", etc... certain kinds of things or creatures ruling, etc...

What is a day to or for God or a God anyway...? or what is or what marks an morning or evening for Him, etc...?

Cause it is not at all like ours are at all, etc...

And the Creation account and the order of life and the things described in them, go right in line with the way evolutionary theory says it all happened and/or came about, etc...

And I've said it before already, an entire Creation, multiple billions of years or more, from it's very starting or beginning to it's very ending is only a week to or for God, or to God, etc, seven days from it's very beginning to it's very ending, etc...

And we've been in day 6 for a very long time now, and day 7 is the age of the ruling and reigning of Christ on earth and the day of rest for the Father, until this Creation ends, when day 6 is concluded (finally) and day 7 which will also be a very long period of time begins, etc, and lasts until this creation is 100% totally and completely ended, etc...

God Bless!

You are welcome to your beliefs, I will stand firm that the Genesis account happened exactly as written, creation over 6 literal 24 hour days.

the things described in them, go right in line with the way evolutionary theory says it all happened

The order of evolution completely conducts the order of creation.

The reasons why I believe in creation:
One because god called the creation very good. I do not believe blood and death, over millions of years to be very good. Death has no part in creation.

Two because the Bible says death only came into being after sin, that death is an enemy that came in and it is also something that will be defeated in the future. The world started without death and will end in the New Heavens and New World without death.

Three because Adam died 930 years after he was created on day 6. Day 7 was the day of rest as this was God giving us the pattern for our week.

Four because I don't believe God would have gone to the trouble of making sure the words morning and evening along with a numbered days were in the Genesis account if he didn't intend for us to read it that way.

Five, because the concept of millions of years of evolution does not come from the Bible. Scripture is always interpreted by scripture and there is no scripture even hinting at evolution, this idea comes directly from secular science.

I have no issue with there possibly being a gap where the earth sat void and unchanging, but this has nothing to do with evolution. If it did sit void this had nothing to do with the creation week which still took place as the Bible states.