The A & P

[Charlie24]

Challenge accepted.

First, yes I did rationalize Scripture. I put my common sense to it, using a few tools such as good concordances (Strong's & Young's), the OED and Biblehub. I was also aware of translations without Hell, so I was not discouraged in my quest.

I read along in my KJV, and came up to the first instance of "hell" at Deuteronomy 32:22. The center-column reference said, "or Sheol." I looked that up, and got "hell" again. I checked the OED, which told me that "hell" originally meant "hidden and covered" as a noun, and "to hide, to cover" as a verb. To place potatoes in a trench below frostline to keep them over the winter is still called "helling the potatoes" to this day, as my father told me, for he had done it. Moving on, I found that "sheol" referred to the grave, the pit, the place of the dead, hidden, covered and unknown. "Hell" was not a bad choice in the original meaning, but the word has been conflated into a doctrine about fire, punishment and suffering the original meaning lacked. I went on to look at every instance of "hell" in the OT, and found that when
"sheol" was connected by context with the real world, it was translated properly as "the grave" or "the pit." About an equal number of times, "sheol" was rendered as "hell" because the context did not tie it to the real world. I see that as bias and bad translation. Honest translators, and there are some, should have translated "sheol" as "grave" and "pit" consistently, but they put doctrine before translation. My conclusion is that there is no literal Hell in the OT.

If you accept the above we can move on to the other words rendered as "hell," or we can discuss the above. I believe we can arrive at the conclusion that there is no literal Hell, and that the various Fires mentioned in the Bible really are Godfire.

Matt. 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 5:29
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
2Thes. 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev. 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matt. 13:42
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt: 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

So you see why I disagree?

 

[FineLinen]

Matt: 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

So you see why I disagree?

This is a vital passage of Scripture, particularly because it is the ONLY one speaking of everlasting punishment by none other than the Lord Lesous.

Put on your reading glasses. Focus on this important word from the Master, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is really quite simple.

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.________________________________________?

2.________________________________________?

3.________________________________________?

4.________________________________________?

5.________________________________________?

 

[FineLinen]

Why should I look past the words of Christ and countless other scripture to understand a theory with no scriptural proof whatsoever?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Matt. 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 5:29
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
2Thes. 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Rev. 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matt. 13:42
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt: 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

So you see why I disagree?

Yes, I do, but there is more going on here than "hell." We must look at the Greek, since you choose to move on past sheol versus hell.

Matthew 10:28 - I looked this verse up in an interlinear version on Biblehub. The Greek word rendered as "hell" is "geenne," a form of Gehenna, a place in the real world where trash and the bodies of condemned criminals were burned. Jesus is simply saying to live in such a way that you inherit the resurrection of the just, and need feel no fear...versus living a life that gets you tossed into Gehenna and getting besides that, the resurrection of Judgment.

Matthew 5:29 - see above.

II Thessalonians 1:8-9 - There is no mention of "hell" here, but we do see "eternal," and that is from the Greek "aionion," a word some insist means "eternal" while others insist it refers to a period of time of varying length, but not to eternity or forever and ever. We of the UR persuasion do acknowledge a penalty for the wicked, just not an eternal one, though I suspect they may suffer a permanent low status in the Kingdom.

Revelation 20:10 - First, be aware that the Bible does not ID the Lake of Fire as "Hell." Second, the interlinear Greek gives us "to the ages of the ages," not "forever and ever."

Matthew 13:42 - It's the Lake of Fire again with no mention of Hell - weeping and gnashing do mean the weeper/gnasher is in Hell, just despairing.

Matthew 25:41 - OK, Lake of Fire and "aionion." No mention of "Hell."

I can do this all day.

 

[Charlie24]

This is a vital passage of Scripture, particularly because it is the ONLY one speaking of everlasting punishment by none other than the Lord Lesous.

Put on your reading glasses. Focus on this important word from the Master, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is really quite simple.

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.________________________________________?

2.

3.________________________________________?

4.________________________________________?

5.________________________________________?

Is this my indoctrination in the "greater hope? lol

I don't care to learn the art of logical fallacy.

The way I see it, the scripture should be taken in literal form unless there is indication it shouldn't. It will be obvious when this occurs.

You on the other hand, look directly to logic for translation of any given scripture.

For this reason we are not on the same level of understanding and it is impossible for us to communicate on mutual terms.

But don't worry, that won't stop me from disagreeing and presenting evidence that rebukes your logic.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, I do, but there is more going on here than "hell." We must look at the Greek, since you choose to move on past sheol versus hell.

Matthew 10:28 - I looked this verse up in an interlinear version on Biblehub. The Greek word rendered as "hell" is "geenne," a form of Gehenna, a place in the real world where trash and the bodies of condemned criminals were burned. Jesus is simply saying to live in such a way that you inherit the resurrection of the just, and need feel no fear...versus living a life that gets you tossed into Gehenna and getting besides that, the resurrection of Judgment.

Matthew 5:29 - see above.

II Thessalonians 1:8-9 - There is no mention of "hell" here, but we do see "eternal," and that is from the Greek "aionion," a word some insist means "eternal" while others insist it refers to a period of time of varying length, but not to eternity or forever and ever. We of the UR persuasion do acknowledge a penalty for the wicked, just not an eternal one, though I suspect they may suffer a permanent low status in the Kingdom.

Revelation 20:10 - First, be aware that the Bible does not ID the Lake of Fire as "Hell." Second, the interlinear Greek gives us "to the ages of the ages," not "forever and ever."

Matthew 13:42 - It's the Lake of Fire again with no mention of Hell - weeping and gnashing do mean the weeper/gnasher is in Hell, just despairing.

Matthew 25:41 - OK, Lake of Fire and "aionion." No mention of "Hell."

I can do this all day.

Yes, I see you can! You are very good at denying the Word of God by changing its meaning.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, I see you can! You are very good at denying the Word of God by changing its meaning.

I just undo what the KJV mis-translators did in 1611. Scholarship is better now, and "hell" is showing up in Bibles less and less often. There are many Bible versions which do not contain the word. Would you like a list of them?

 

[Charlie24]

I just undo what the KJV mis-translators did in 1611. Scholarship is better now, and "hell" is showing up in Bibles less and less often. There are many Bible versions which do not contain the word. Would you like a list of them?

I agree, Satan is marching on isn't he.

You can lead the way by taking hell out of the Bible this generation and the next generation can take out Jesus saves us from hell.

Then the next generation won't need Christ. That's logical isn't it?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I agree, Satan is marching on isn't he.

You can lead the way by taking hell out of the Bible this generation and the next generation can take out Jesus saves us from hell.

Then the next generation won't need Christ. That's logical isn't it?

Jesus the Christ saves us from Hell only in the sense that Hell = the grave...or pit.

Other than that, He saves us from:

1. Our sins.

2. Death.

The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) tries to attract flies with vinegar - a fool's errand. Multitudes of rather honest people refuse to follow the god of ECT, and rightly so.

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus the Christ saves us from Hell only in the sense that Hell = the grave...or pit.

Other than that, He saves us from:

1. Our sins.

2. Sin.

The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) tries to attract flies with vinegar - a fool's errand. Multitudes of rather honest people refuse to follow the god of ECT, and rightly so.

If hell doesn't exist, what is the punishment for those who obey not the commandments of our Lord?

I know the Bible says they go to hell, but this is logic we are talking now.

 

[Lazarus Short]

If hell doesn't exist, what is the punishment for those who obey not the commandments of our Lord?

I know the Bible says they go to hell, but this is logic we are talking now.

Most of us UR folks see God's punishment as corrective, not punitive or retributive. God's goal is to reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself, by removing the Adamic curse and refining men by removing the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble. Then the worst of us come forth as gold, silver and precious gems, though they lose much in the Fire. Those who don't go through the fire get rewards and (I think) a higher status. When all that is done, the Son turns the Kingdom over to the Father, Who then becomes All in all. See First Corinthians, chapters 3 and 15.

 

[Charlie24]

Most of us UR folks see God's punishment as corrective, not punitive or retributive. God's goal is to reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself, by removing the Adamic curse and refining men by removing the dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble. Then the worst of us come forth as gold, silver and precious gems, though they lose much in the Fire. Those who don't go through the fire get rewards and (I think) a higher status. When all that is done, the Son turns the Kingdom over to the Father, Who then becomes All in all. See First Corinthians, chapters 3 and 15.

How can you take 1Cor. 3 word for word without the logic, but yet the verses that don't fit into UR you must redefine and reconstruct into something that does fit.

This is a huge problem, don't you think?

 

[Lazarus Short]

How can you take 1Cor. 3 word for word without the logic, but yet the verses that don't fit into UR you must redefine and reconstruct into something that does fit.

This is a huge problem, don't you think?

It's not a problem if you consult an interlinear version, but keep in mind that the Bible appears to teach all three theories, damnationism, annihilation and reconciliation. With that said, I saw little that seemed to support annihilation, so the usual debate is between the other two. Beyond that, I am accused of this: "...reconstruct into something that does fit." I insist that I dig deeper than the mis-translations in the KJV and its ilk; and the mis-interpretations that pass for certain church doctrines.

This rule will never fail you: FIRST, the honest and competent translation, and only then, the doctrine.

 

[Charlie24]

It's not a problem if you consult an interlinear version, but keep in mind that the Bible appears to teach all three theories, damnationism, annihilation and reconciliation. With that said, I saw little that seemed to support annihilation, so the usual debate is between the other two. Beyond that, I am accused of this: "...reconstruct into something that does fit." I insist that I dig deeper than the mis-translations in the KJV and its ilk; and the mis-interpretations that pass for certain church doctrines.

This rule will never fail you: FIRST, the honest and competent translation, and only then, the doctrine.

I suppose someone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment can see no danger in translating the scriptures to mean whatever they want.

Rev. 22:18-19 issues a warning for such as this. This is very dangerous ground to tread.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I suppose someone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment can see no danger in translating the scriptures to mean whatever they want.

Rev. 22:18-19 issues a warning for such as this. This is very dangerous ground to tread.

The translators of the KJV and the like have already done it. I have read the warnings, and recognize the danger...so I don't do it. Why do you accuse me?

 

[Saint Steven]

Look guys, the only way that doctrine can be confirmed is by scripture proving scripture.

That's the only way it can be confirmed and valid. The scripture that seems to contradict must be dealt with using only scripture to validate.

In this case, the contradictions to your claims are overwhelming.

You need to be reasonable with us on this.
There really is no way for us to completely remove the Damnationist translation bias from the Bible. Imagine how much easier this would be for us if the Universalists had been in charge of translation. Things would probably be biased in the other direction.

We can only show you what we have. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to convert you to my doctrine, I just want you to understand it. Then you can make your own choice. Fair enough?

 

[Saint Steven]

Rev. 22:18-19 issues a warning for such as this. This is very dangerous ground to tread.

Seriously?
This is where the NIV really helps.
FYI, the Bible is a set of scrolls. Revelation is a single scroll.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[Saint Steven]

Remember in our beginning of conversation that I accused you of taking scripture out context?

Yes. And I also remember proving you wrong.

 

[Saint Steven]

Where this fails is that both the saved and the unsaved will bow and confess.

You have no proof for that claim.

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you see the pattern? There is a condition for entering the Kingdom of God.

Conditions will need to be met, obviously. We are not claiming otherwise.