The A & P

[BNR32FAN]

From the UR perspective, the part about if evil fathers so benevolence to their children, how much more so your Father in heaven?, is the focus.

To those who ask.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Seems very self explanatory to me. See post #448

Ahh ok I get it now. So Sodom was purified in the rain of fire & brimstone?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Ahh ok I get it now. So Sodom was purified in the rain of fire & brimstone?

I suppose so viewing it from that angle. I get the impression the wickedness there was getting close to what it was in Noah's time, and God cleansed it with theos fire instead of water.

 

[Ceallaigh]

To those who ask.

Exactly. The idea is those who are ultimately saved will ask for salvation, rather than it being forced on them against their will.

 

[FineLinen]

Exactly. The idea is those who are ultimately saved will ask for salvation, rather than it being forced on them against their will.

Salvation is firmly rooted within the Will of all wills. He desires to draw together the all within His dear Son in the restitution of all things.

I will draw (helkō) unto Me.

 

[FredVB]

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that seem like justice to you? Infinite (sadistic) punishment for a finite "crime".
Even sinful humans know better than that. What a horrible thing to accuse God of.
Sorry, it sickens me.

Does little good to just shrug it off and say, "That's just the way it is. God's bigger than us, we can't stop him from doing as he pleases." One could say that same thing about a schoolyard bully. And you think I am out of line for questioning the status quo? Get a grip!

It's not our fault for the way you claim God set this whole thing up. And then for you to be appalled by anyone questioning it?

I'm interested in your perspective about how I talk. (post)
If I could improve the level of communication, that would be good.
(assuming your comment points toward a need for improvement?)
But be gentle, I can dish it out, but I can't take it. - LOL

It is not making good argument with assuming positions of another without the other having definitely said something for that assumed position, and then, moreover, making a statement of implied emotional response, as there is with saying that position sickens you. Positions here are best argued with Bible passages themselves. If there is discussion from research what is known from actual research can be said.

It might help if you define what you mean by fair?

You seem to be thinking of fairness in terms of what one deserves. Accordingly, we all come into this world enslaved to sin. How do we deserve damnation when we had no choice but to sin? Somehow, you think those who accept Christ are treated fairly by receiving salvation, as if they deserve it for their faith. And, those who reject Christ are deservedly damned. Is that really fair? What about those who never heard? How are they getting what they deserve? I have lots of question if by fairness you mean just deserts.

Fairness settles the balance so all have an equal share, i.e., equity. If God were fair, God would distribute grace or damnation equally. The only fair doctrine, then, is UR; the others make God unjust, i.e., unfair.

God's justice is fair. God is not limited to our capacity for fairness, which requires careful equality in distribution for us to be sure of fairness. God is not limited. God can know what is fair with all the variable differences, that is how God's justice is carried out and it is fair while not based on our human capacity for fairness. And, as I say many times, God is not willing that anyone would just perish, and all are given some opportunity to respond to God, with God revealing grace. That is the case even if babies have to be brought back to where they can respond for that. It is not that I know how that happens, though. Wherever they are, people have had an opportunity to respond to God while there is evidence that there is God the Creator all around. God will work with that to bring them to more truth, with which there is possibility of repentance and faith that is needed. People still die and perish, those ones did not want that, on God's terms, who they should have responded to. Still, believers should be bringing the gospel for others, and it is desirable and godly to bring more opportunity to any others to respond with hearing the gospel.

Sin is what includes our choices which go contrary to faith and trust in God, in which God's will should matter. These are choices for us, we do not have to choose just one way, or just another way, that would not be choice for us, but we sin with actual choices we make. The capacity for that is the sin nature, which we need to be delivered from, for full restoration.

Jesus spoke of hell, I then believe it is real. But that is not saying what it is, to argue with what is presumed it means, to say it is not fair, is presuming a position that really I do not take.

Faith is not making us deserving. God is gracious.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is not making good argument with assuming positions of another without the other having definitely said something for that assumed position, and then, moreover, making a statement of implied emotional response, as there is with saying that position sickens you. Positions here are best argued with Bible passages themselves. If there is discussion from research what is known from actual research can be said.

Thanks for your input/critique.

We are at page 24 of a thread that was started in mid-August of 2019. Not sure what page you found my post on, or when that was. Hopefully I have improved a bit since then.

 

[FredVB]

I am sure communication with others improves as it would for almost any believers. I believe in God's perfect fairness and justice, which is within God's goodness, salvation of any is not called for from that, but God's love and grace do lead to the provision of salvation which Christ accomplished for us. Sins still will lead to justice, without exception, but in God's grace Christ bore the justice for all sins for those who come to be in Christ. What others will come to is not torture, they will come to fair justice that comes without exception, apart from Christ, who warned of that with what he called hell.

 

[FredVB]

God's justice is fair. God is not limited to our capacity for fairness, which requires careful equality in distribution for us to be sure of fairness. God is not limited. God can know what is fair with all the variable differences, that is how God's justice is carried out and it is fair while not based on our human capacity for fairness. And, as I say many times, God is not willing that anyone would just perish, and all are given some opportunity to respond to God, with God revealing grace. That is the case even if babies have to be brought back to where they can respond for that. It is not that I know how that happens, though. Wherever they are, people have had an opportunity to respond to God while there is evidence that there is God the Creator all around. God will work with that to bring them to more truth, with which there is possibility of repentance and faith that is needed. People still die and perish, those ones did not want that, on God's terms, who they should have responded to. Still, believers should be bringing the gospel for others, and it is desirable and godly to bring more opportunity to any others to respond with hearing the gospel.

Jesus would not have been wrong about it, and God is gracious, the Creator caring for the creatures of God's creation. The fall made everything of this world cursed from the sins that are against God. But God answers the hope with deliverance made available to all, though so many people will not repent and live by faith coming to God, they will still see the enduring consequence with anguish and regret after this life.

 

[FredVB]

We who are believers have repentant faith with which we came to Christ, as needed, that we are restored to God, and we should follow Jesus Christ as our Lord that he is, and doing this staying faithful to the end. There are many who don't do this and those ones all perish as it was said and it is written, there is lasting eternal consequences to their lives of sinfulness they will have, Christ still came to deliver all though this way is narrow and there are those who won't have it, in any case. Yet we should still speak of this way, it is the right one.

 

[FredVB]

Christ had to tell others who would listen to what he said, wide is the way to destruction. There were many who would go any other way but the one way, with following him. This is how there cannot be redemption to them, who will not follow him. And he needs to be recognized as Lord then, with living according to what he has shown and as he has said, which that would mean, repentance doesn't lead to anything without that.

 

[FredVB]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 8:28-39

We know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these he also called; whom he called, these He also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith with repentance to come to Christ and be restored to God is essential, and the most essential. With that, none of us are separated from salvation in Christ.

 

[cfposter]

WOW! It's beyond me how anyone can read the Bible and surmise that Christ will save all of mankind.

I see a loving caring God in scripture but I also see a righteous God that must judge mankind for unrepentant sin.

Is this theory based on a second chance after death or what?

It is based on Mercy! God saves ALL in due time. God doesn't fail. This doens't mean that people will not pay for their sins. Many will. But those that are repentant now and remain till the end will be CHOSEN to be Priests and Reign with Christ in the coming age. This was typed by the Levitical Priesthood in the Old Testament that had to be chosen first in order to be servants to the rest of the congregation in their atonements.

Go look at the parable of the unforgiving servant. Was his punishment endless? No, it was TILL all was paid that was owed. Remember, in the Old Covenant SIn incurs debt. Anytime someone sinned they had to come to the Temple and PAY for that sin with a sacrifice.

This idea of a relocation plan for sinners to a place called Hell is based on a misunderstanding of the scriptures. God is going to eradicate SIN universally. Therefore, the idea that sinners can still exist but be in a place called Hell would not fit that purpose.

 

[cfposter]

I'm nowhere near the brightest of the bright, but I"m pretty sure you have taken that scripture out of context.

Tell me plainly, why God would save those who have refused His call.

Because a non believer is as much the responsibility of God as the believer is. For belief is not the work of one's self but of God. Therefore, those that God has not called and given Faith and repentance are His responsibility. So while man's conscience desires to sin, he is still held accountable for those sins but he is not held responsible for them. For man was made subject to vanity - not willingly.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[FredVB]

God is abundant in mercy, and, abundant in grace. There is no contradiction or inconsistency in God. God is still fully just and righteous, and justice would not be compromised. This is why Christ came, and Christ bore righteous judgment as the fair consequence to sin, that God cannot just look on, for those who come and would be in Christ, with the repentant faith it takes, that they are restored to God, who provided for the redemption.