The A & P

[Charlie24]

I see that you are still using the term "Spiritual Death" which I have shown to be an oxymoron. Is there really anything good in my discussing with you?

"Fire of Hell"? Now that sets me to thinking...we have:

Sheol, the original, in Hebrew - referred to the grave, the pit, covered and unknown. No fire.

Hades, the best Greek equivalent of Sheol - but it was not quite equivalent, carrying unavoidable pagan baggage. No fire.

Gehenna, the Hebrew place of burning. Fire, but it's in the real world.

Tartarus, a word from Greek mythology, used once. No fire.

Infernum, a Latin word. I looked it up: "the depths of the earth," that is to say, the grave, the pit...and surprise - no fire. The "inferno" of fire came along much later.

Hell or Hel, an Old English word. I have seen it in the 1611 KJV and in Beowulf. Several languages of old north Europe had equivalent words. It meant the grave, the pit, hidden and covered. As with "Infernum," the fire was ascribed to it later.

All this, and more, was conflated into a Dogma of burning Hell with no escape. The Scriptures were tweaked to support this Dogma aimed at keeping the laity in line, plus the pews and offering plates full. Meanwhile, the RCC was burning Protestants, heretics, witches and others ALIVE. I and others are only doing what Martin Luther should have done 500 years ago.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is being made spiritually alive when you were spiritually dead.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is being made spiritually alive when you were spiritually dead.

I see we were approaching the question from two different directions, but be aware that even when were "spiritually dead," we still had the Spirit of Life in us. But I get your point.

 

[Saint Steven]

Now you are trying to get me in trouble!!!!

No. You will get yourself in trouble with that sort of behavior.

 

[Saint Steven]

The scripture tells me that God in His mercy and love for man has made a way for me to escape that judgement and live in His presence forever, fully vindicated of all my sins and perfect in His sight.

Will there be eternal S'mores to go with the eternal fire? I would be a shame to waste such a fine blaze, right?

 

[Saint Steven]

"And in this spirit we read the suggestive words, "You, Lord, art merciful," says the Psalmist, "for You render to every man according to his work." - Ps. lxii. 12. Here is the essence of the question - retribution is mercy; judgment means salvation."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- bold emphasis mine

 

[Saint Steven]

"Let us pause here for a moment to dwell on the significance of this fact of the limited duration of the divine anger, so clearly taught in the Old Testament. Take a few instances, " I am merciful, says the Lord, I will not keep anger for ever." - Jer. iii 12. "His anger endures but a moment." - Ps. xxx. 5. "While His mercy endures for ever," - Ps. cxxxvi .- a statement repeated no less than twenty-six times in this one Psalm. "He will not always chide, neither keeps He His anger for ever."- Ps. ciii. 9. "He retains not His anger for ever, because He delights in mercy." - Mic. vii. 18."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter seven --- bold emphasis mine

 

[Saint Steven]

"Let us pause here for a moment to dwell on the significance of this fact of the limited duration of the divine anger, so clearly taught in the Old Testament. Take a few instances, " I am merciful, says the Lord, I will not keep anger for ever." - Jer. iii 12. "His anger endures but a moment." - Ps. xxx. 5. "While His mercy endures for ever," - Ps. cxxxvi .- a statement repeated no less than twenty-six times in this one Psalm. "He will not always chide, neither keeps He His anger for ever."- Ps. ciii. 9. "He retains not His anger for ever, because He delights in mercy." - Mic. vii. 18."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter seven --- bold emphasis mine

Furthermore...

"But if this be true, what becomes of the popular creed? If God's anger is temporary, how can it be endless? If it endure but a moment, how can it last for ever in even a solitary instance? I would invite our opponents fairly to face these plain and reiterated assertions: and to explain why they feel justified in teaching that God's anger will in many cases last for ever, and that His mercy will not endure for ever."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter seven --- bold emphasis mine

 

[Charlie24]

Furthermore...

"But if this be true, what becomes of the popular creed? If God's anger is temporary, how can it be endless? If it endure but a moment, how can it last for ever in even a solitary instance? I would invite our opponents fairly to face these plain and reiterated assertions: and to explain why they feel justified in teaching that God's anger will in many cases last for ever, and that His mercy will not endure for ever."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter seven --- bold emphasis mine

It's amazing to me that you can take the Bible word for word until you read, everlasting, forever, and eternal.

All of a sudden these 3 words are not taken for what they say. There's a mistake in the translation.

Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Steven, what has been taken away from the words of this prophecy?

 

[Saint Steven]

It's amazing to me that you can take the Bible word for word until you read, everlasting, forever, and eternal.

All of a sudden these 3 words are not taken for what they say. There's a mistake in the translation.

Rev. 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Steven, what has been taken away from the words of this prophecy?

Checkmate. You got me this time.
I guess you are right. God is a merciless tyrant bent on revenge.
Though we are required to ALWAYS forgive, he can torture countless billions for eternity because his wrath will never be satisfied.
Can we agree on that? (I'm joking of course) Only God is eternal.

It's amazing to me that you fight tooth and nail to preserve hell, but you can't tell me what you like best about it.

 

[Charlie24]

Checkmate. You got me this time.
I guess you are right. God is a merciless tyrant bent on revenge.
Though we are required to ALWAYS forgive, he can torture countless billions for eternity because his wrath will never be satisfied.
Can we agree on that? (I'm joking of course) Only God is eternal.

It's amazing to me that you fight tooth and nail to preserve hell, but you can't tell me what you like best about it.

I like nothing about hell. I'm sure God doesn't like it one bit that any man spend eternity there. This place was made eternal for Satan and his angels, and the others who choose his ways.

Every opportunity I get I tell man that a righteous God must be a righteous Judge. He cannot be righteous any other way.

He has made a way for us to escape this place called hell. If we refuse God has no choice.

Unrepentant sin cannot dwell in the presence of the Almighty God, He is that pure.

 

[Saint Steven]

Unrepentant sin cannot dwell in the presence of the Almighty God, He is that pure.

The Bible tells us in the book of Job that Satan stands before God. Is Satan pure and sinless?

 

[Saint Steven]

Every opportunity I get I tell man that a righteous God must be a righteous Judge.

What part of eternity in hell with no hope of escape is righteous judgment?
Even sinful humans have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
Are we more merciful than God?

 

[Charlie24]

The Bible tells us in the book of Job that Satan stands before God. Is Satan pure and sinless?

Satan comes before the throne of God from time to time along with the fallen angles to give account of themselves.

They have not come to "dwell in the presence of God" as I stated. This is a temporary meeting.

To dwell is to live or stay. They cannot dwell with God.

 

[Charlie24]

What part of eternity in hell with no hope of escape is righteous judgment.
Even sinful humans have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
Are we more merciful than God?

Man puts himself there. God just makes it possible.

We have a choice, God will honor that choice either way.

 

[Saint Steven]

Satan comes before the throne of God from time to time along with the fallen angles to give account of themselves.

They have not come to "dwell in the presence of God" as I stated. This is a temporary meeting.

To dwell is to live or stay. They cannot dwell with God.

There you go. It has NOTHING to do with not being "pure and sinless".

 

[Charlie24]

There you go. It has NOTHING to do with not being "pure and sinless".

With eyes they will not see, with ears they will not hear.

 

[Saint Steven]

Man puts himself there. God just makes it possible.

We have a choice, God will honor that choice either way.

Don't you think God needs to take responsibility for his actions and stop blaming everything on us?
Was it your fault for being born in Adam's race? And there are countless billions that never had a choice. Is that what you call justice?

 

[Saint Steven]

With eyes they will not see, with ears they will not hear.

That's convenient.
You are the one who thinks God is a merciless tyrant bent on revenge, because his wrath will never be satisfied. How can you make such a horrible conclusion?

 

[Charlie24]

Don't you think God needs to take responsibility for his actions and stop blaming everything on us?
Was it your fault for being born in Adam's race? And there are countless billions that never had a choice. Is that what you call justice?

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Rom. 9:20-21

 

[Saint Steven]

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Rom. 9:20-21

You win again.
Biblical proof for your belief that God is a merciless tyrant bent on revenge, because his wrath will never be satisfied. Kudos.