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The A & P

Saint Steven

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In other words, you will rationalize them away.
That's exactly what you did to these scriptures. Claiming they meant something other than what they plainly said.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do I need to fill the page or how many pages will it take for you to see why I oppose your claims.
I know that you oppose our claims. I am only concerned that you properly understand them. You are still indicating that you do not comprehend what we are saying.
 
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Saint Steven

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But don't worry, that won't stop me from disagreeing and presenting evidence that rebukes your logic.
How about if you stop fighting and work on understanding us instead of refuting us?
Ask us some CONSTRUCTIVE questions and accept our answers without concern for rebuttal. You aren't even allowing us some space to explain without having to navigate your constant tantrums.
 
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Saint Steven

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I agree, Satan is marching on isn't he.

You can lead the way by taking hell out of the Bible this generation and the next generation can take out Jesus saves us from hell.

Then the next generation won't need Christ. That's logical isn't it?
Now is that really necessary?
 
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Saint Steven

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A) Yes, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Where this fails is that both the saved and the unsaved will bow and confess.
How do I know this?
Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You can't undo Philippians 2:10-11 with Matt. 7:21. See point A below.

John 8:24 and John 3:16 are compatible with the greater hope.
As is Matt. 7:21. Those with a relationship will enter first. (1 Corinthians 5:23)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A) Every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth (the realm of the dead) and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10-11) That's everyone - everywhere.

B) No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) Those acknowledging Jesus Christ is Lord, do so by the Spirit.

C) The very reason that Christ died and returned to life is so that he might be the Lord of BOTH the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9)

D) Anyone who declares (acknowledges) with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

E) The NT Greek word used for "acknowledge" in Phil.2:11 is defined as giving full agreement, to whole-heartedly and openly declare without reservation. See note with Strong's definition at the bottom of this post.
 
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Saint Steven

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1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
 
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Charlie24

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The translators of the KJV and the like have already done it. I have read the warnings, and recognize the danger...so I don't do it. Why do you accuse me?
Why do I accuse you??????

Look at what you have done to the scripture. You have changed scripture that without a doubt teaches a literal hell, and made it non existent.

You have quite a gall to ask me why I accuse you!!!
 
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Charlie24

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You need to be reasonable with us on this.
There really is no way for us to completely remove the Damnationist translation bias from the Bible. Imagine how much easier this would be for us if the Universalists had been in charge of translation. Things would probably be biased in the other direction.

We can only show you what we have. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to convert you to my doctrine, I just want you to understand it. Then you can make your own choice. Fair enough?
Do you really believe that God would have allowed the Universalists to translate His Word. God has placed His Word above His name?

What you have shown me is that a bunch of snowflakes got together and decided that the Judgement of God is to harsh and we need to do something about it.

So you have gone on a campaign to change the Word of the Almighty God.

How reasonable do you think God will be on judgement day?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you really believe that God would have allowed the Universalists to translate His Word. God has placed His Word above His name?

What you have shown me is that a bunch of snowflakes got together and decided that the Judgement of God is to harsh and we need to do something about it.

So you have gone on a campaign to change the Word of the Almighty God.

How reasonable do you think God will be on judgement day?
What horrible things you are writing.

Charlie24 said:
Do you really believe that God would have allowed the Universalists to translate His Word. God has placed His Word above His name?

What you have shown me is that a bunch of snowflakes got together and decided that the Judgement of God is to harsh and we need to do something about it.

So you have gone on a campaign to change the Word of the Almighty God.

How reasonable do you think God will be on judgement day?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you really believe that God would have allowed the Universalists to translate His Word. God has placed His Word above His name?

What you have shown me is that a bunch of snowflakes got together and decided that the Judgement of God is to harsh and we need to do something about it.

So you have gone on a campaign to change the Word of the Almighty God.

How reasonable do you think God will be on judgement day?
You think that God would not have allowed Universalists to translate the Bible?
That is a slam against the early Eastern Orthodox church. The closest link to the original NT church and the Apostles.

Obviously, your intent was to put us down. Why do you elevate yourself this way? There is all sorts of diversity in the body of Christ. There's no reason to HATE any of the members of the body. But I suppose you are claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with you is OUTSIDE the body.

And you call us "snowflakes"?
Would you prefer it if we "man-up" to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape?
Should we sit around the fire and make S'mores? Maybe roast some hot dogs and crack a few jokes about the lost?

Here's a question for you: What do you like best about Hell?
 
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Charlie24

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What horrible things you are writing.

Charlie24 said:
Do you really believe that God would have allowed the Universalists to translate His Word. God has placed His Word above His name?

What you have shown me is that a bunch of snowflakes got together and decided that the Judgement of God is to harsh and we need to do something about it.

So you have gone on a campaign to change the Word of the Almighty God.

How reasonable do you think God will be on judgement day?
But you can see no horror in changing the Word o God?
 
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Saint Steven

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But you can see no horror in changing the Word o God?
The RCC cooked the books. The books you call the "Word of God".
We are whistleblowers on the coverup: HellGate.
 
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Charlie24

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You say that God would not have allowed Universalists to translate the Bible?
That is a slam against the early Eastern Orthodox church. The closest link to the original NT church and the Apostles.

Obviously, your intent was to put us down. Why do you elevate yourself this way? There is all sorts of diversity in the body of Christ. There's no reason to HATE any of the members of the body. But I suppose you are claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with you is OUTSIDE the body.

And you call us "snowflakes"?
Would you prefer it if we "man-up" to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape?

Here's a question for you: What do you like best about Hell?
I'm not putting you down, I'm doing what any follower of Christ would, I'm pointing out error. You are trying to change the Word of God, and it can't be denied.

But there is a way out.

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All who come to me, I will in no wise cast out.

If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
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Charlie24

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I'm not putting you down, I'm doing what any follower of Christ would, I'm pointing out error. You are trying to change the Word of God, and it can't be denied.

But there is a way out.

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All who come to me, I will in no wise cast out.

If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Steven, what does the Bible say that Jesus saves us from?
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm not putting you down, I'm doing what any follower of Christ would, I'm pointing out error. You are trying to change the Word of God, and it can't be denied.

But there is a way out.

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All who come to me, I will in no wise cast out.

If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Now you are claiming that we are NOT saved? That's NOT okay.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm pointing out error. You are trying to change the Word of God, and it can't be denied.
If your Bible does NOT contain the Apocrypha, then have YOU not changed what you call the "Word of God"?
 
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Charlie24

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Now you are claiming that we are NOT saved? That's NOT okay.
Now you are claiming that we are NOT saved? That's NOT okay.

post#190Would you prefer it if we "man-up" to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape?

Did you not say this Steven? Where you accuse me of saying you are not saved, was my response to that statement.

Now you are trying to get me in trouble!!!!
 
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Lazarus Short

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Why do I accuse you??????

Look at what you have done to the scripture. You have changed scripture that without a doubt teaches a literal hell, and made it non existent.

You have quite a gall to ask me why I accuse you!!!

"...without a doubt..."? Then why did I have doubts, and now a conviction, that "literal" Hell does not exist? The props of Hell are:

1. Questionable translation, for many (I can provide a list) Bible versions do not have it, and of those that do, the word is slowly becoming more and more scarce.

2. Fiction, such as the works of Dante, Milton and Mary K. Baxter.

3. Popular culture references to Hell.

I could take you to Jerusalem and show you literal Gehenna, but you cannot show me literal Hell, or prove it. "...scripture that without a doubt teaches a literal hell..." is just one version among many, and the all of them are just translations of the Word, not the Word Itself. In the Greek and Hebrew, "hell" is not seen at all, just these four words, none of which refer to what you call "Hell":

1. Sheol

2. Hades

3. Gehenna

4. Tartarus

Now, a question for you: Where are you going when you die?
 
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Charlie24

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"...without a doubt..."? Then why did I have doubts, and now a conviction, that "literal" Hell does not exist? The props of Hell are:

1. Questionable translation, for many (I can provide a list) Bible versions do not have it, and of those that do, the word is slowly becoming more and more scarce.

2. Fiction, such as the works of Dante, Milton and Mary K. Baxter.

3. Popular culture references to Hell.

I could take you to Jerusalem and show you literal Gehenna, but you cannot show me literal Hell, or prove it. "...scripture that without a doubt teaches a literal hell..." is just one version among many, and the all of them are just translations of the Word, not the Word Itself. In the Greek and Hebrew, "hell" is not seen at all, just these four words, none of which refer to what you call "Hell":

1. Sheol

2. Hades

3. Gehenna

4. Tartarus

Now, a question for you: Where are you going when you die?
On my own I have no way of knowing where I will go. But when I look to the Word of God, that is, the Word of God that hell hasn't been taken out of, I see that God has condemned all men because of sin. The Almighty has declared spiritual death, eternal separation from Him in the lake of fire, as the penalty for sin.

Because He is the creator of all men and perfect in all His ways, He created us in His own image to be perfect in His presence. Man failed of his own free will by sinning.

As I read on in His Word I find the explainable Grace of God. The scripture tells me that God in His mercy and love for man has made a way for me to escape that judgement and live in His presence forever, fully vindicated of all my sins and perfect in His sight.

Jesus said around 2000 years ago, I am come that you may have life and have it more abundantly. You see, Christ had to come in the flesh in order to die on the Cross to pay mans sin debt. This was Gods plan for man before He created man. It's called "Grace."

How can I be vindicated from my sin and take part in this amazing Grace, escaping the fire of hell?
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

By these promises in which I took part, I can say by the promise of Almighty God, I will go to be with Him for eternity.
 
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Lazarus Short

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On my own I have no way of knowing where I will go. But when I look to the Word of God, that is, the Word of God that hell hasn't been taken out of, I see that God has condemned all men because of sin. The Almighty has declared spiritual death, eternal separation from Him in the lake of fire, as the penalty for sin.

Because He is the creator of all men and perfect in all His ways, He created us in His own image to be perfect in His presence. Man failed of his own free will by sinning.

As I read on in His Word I find the explainable Grace of God. The scripture tells me that God in His mercy and love for man has made a way for me to escape that judgement and live in His presence forever, fully vindicated of all my sins and perfect in His sight.

Jesus said around 2000 years ago, I am come that you may have life and have it more abundantly. You see, Christ had to come in the flesh in order to die on the Cross to pay mans sin debt. This was Gods plan for man before He created man. It's called "Grace."

How can I be vindicated from my sin and take part in this amazing Grace, escaping the fire of hell?
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

By these promises in which I took part, I can say by the promise of Almighty God, I will go to be with Him for eternity.

I see that you are still using the term "Spiritual Death" which I have shown to be an oxymoron. Is there really anything good in my discussing with you?

"Fire of Hell"? Now that sets me to thinking...we have:

Sheol, the original, in Hebrew - referred to the grave, the pit, covered and unknown. No fire.

Hades, the best Greek equivalent of Sheol - but it was not quite equivalent, carrying unavoidable pagan baggage. No fire.

Gehenna, the Hebrew place of burning. Fire, but it's in the real world.

Tartarus, a word from Greek mythology, used once. No fire.

Infernum, a Latin word. I looked it up: "the depths of the earth," that is to say, the grave, the pit...and surprise - no fire. The "inferno" of fire came along much later.

Hell or Hel, an Old English word. I have seen it in the 1611 KJV and in Beowulf. Several languages of old north Europe had equivalent words. It meant the grave, the pit, hidden and covered. As with "Infernum," the fire was ascribed to it later.

All this, and more, was conflated into a Dogma of burning Hell with no escape. The Scriptures were tweaked to support this Dogma aimed at keeping the laity in line, plus the pews and offering plates full. Meanwhile, the RCC was burning Protestants, heretics, witches and others ALIVE. I and others are only doing what Martin Luther should have done 500 years ago.
 
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