Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

[BobRyan]

But Peter DID NOT LEARN Christ is the Messiah from Scripture.

Prior to revealing Himself as the resurrected Christ - Jesus does exactly that... .proving that He was the Messiah from scripture alone.

Luke 24: He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

“He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:15-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What scripture did Peter have to support his claim? Was he wrong?

Christ claimed he had "Moses and all the prophets... all the scriptures" to prove that point.

John 5:39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"

 

[BNR32FAN]

And here is where the deliberate deception enters. The claim is made about the “Catholic Church” not the “Roman Catholic Church” as most readers would assume. The word “catholic” simply means “universal.” So in that sense, it could be argued that the writers of the New Testament were of the “universal” body of believers which did, in fact, exist, before New Testament times. However, the implication that it is only the declaration of the Roman Catholic Church “that the books of the New Testament are all inspired by God constitutes the sole authority for the universal belief of both Catholics and Protestants in their inspired character” is both incorrect and blasphemous.
Did the Roman Catholic Church Really Give Us the Bible?

The canon of scriptures in both the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church contain 73 books. They were canonized long before Rome was excommunicated.

 

[BobRyan]

The canon of scriptures in both the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church contain 73 books.

The NT canon in all Christian denominations contains the exact same number of books.
The Hebrew Bible (OT) contains the exact same content as the 39 books we have today as the OT. This is true for all denominations as well.

The "odd" part is the Jewish text which both the Jews and the Protestants reject (and so also did Jerome reject) as canonical scripture. "Some" Christian groups take those Jewish texts and decide to make them part of scripture "anyway".

 

[BNR32FAN]

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible...………….
"And they shall prophesy" - The word “prophesy” does not necessarily mean that they would predict future events; but the sense is, that they would give utterance to the truth as God had revealed it.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
"prophesy" — preach under the inspiration of the Spirit, denouncing judgments against the apostate.

Vincent's Word Studies
Commonly explained of preaching repentance,

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
The sacred writer assures us that God would raise up some true and faithful witnesses, to preach and protest against the innovations mentioned in the preceding verse:

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Prophesy—All true preaching is prophecy, for it predicts man’s future destiny, and comes from a divine power. The whole gospel is a solemn prophecy.

Can you show me an example where the word prophecy is written in the Bible that does not pertain to divine revelation or future events? What you are referring to is teaching.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible...………….
"And they shall prophesy" - The word “prophesy” does not necessarily mean that they would predict future events; but the sense is, that they would give utterance to the truth as God had revealed it.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
"prophesy" — preach under the inspiration of the Spirit, denouncing judgments against the apostate.

Vincent's Word Studies
Commonly explained of preaching repentance,

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
The sacred writer assures us that God would raise up some true and faithful witnesses, to preach and protest against the innovations mentioned in the preceding verse:

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Prophesy—All true preaching is prophecy, for it predicts man’s future destiny, and comes from a divine power. The whole gospel is a solemn prophecy.

Again another reference to prophecy in the end times. This one even refers to receiving visions.

“' AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, ' THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy. ' AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. ' THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. ' AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Major1]

Can you show me an example where the word prophecy is written in the Bible that does not pertain to divine revelation or future events? What you are referring to is teaching.

From past conversation with you, my 1st thought is WHY would I take the time to do such a thing when you are able to do it yourself and then 2nd, when done only to have you reject what is posted for you.

Against my better judgment...…..

Unlike the Old Testament where the Prophets had high authority and who alone seemed to have the Spirit, in the last days this role would change. Upon the ending of that high role, some aspects of it, namely the experience of the Spirit and even gifts of seeing God’s will for our current situation and even in Acts and other places a gift of prophecy that could predict future events was long foretold by Joel:

“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women,
 I will pour out my Spirit in those days. (NIV Joel 2:28-29)

In this sense under a new meaning of prophecy, after the high official office ended, everyone prophecies by experiencing the Spirit...…….".

Heb. 3:1...…..
"Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest."

Just as the Prophets ended in that their primary purpose was to write down those prophecies which were fulfilled as Christ appeared, so as the twelve Apostles established the doctrines of the church in the New Testament, having completed their task the office, in that sense also ceased. We now have teachers and preachers who make known God’s word to us.
What is the Biblical definition of "prophecy"?

All prophecy speaks of Christ, for this is the current and future will of God, that we adore him, in the Spirit of worship and love.

 

[Major1]

Again another reference to prophecy in the end times. This one even refers to receiving visions.

“' AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, ' THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy. ' AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. ' THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. ' AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

To properly understand the Scriptures.....ALL of them must be considered and just not the ones we want to accept.

If YOU choose to believe that there are "Prophets" today who are empowered to tell the future then please go right ahead and believe that.

I DO NOT DO SO! IMO, the office of Apostle and PROPHET has ended when the Scriptures were completed. I say that because that is what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ……..
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

Now those are the exact words. The Perfect can only be the Lord Jesus Christ WHO HAS ALREAD COME or the COMPLETED Scriptures.

1 John 4:1 is very clear...……..
"Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

If there were to be a prophet today. They CAN NOT predict "new truths" about end times and their words will not conflict with or go outside the bounds of scripture.

Revelation 22:18 says, ……..
"If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book."

NOW, that my friend is exactly what the Bible says. YOU are of course free to reject all of this and believe as you wish to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

NO SIR. I am simply explaining the meaning of the word "Prophesy" to you as used in the New Test.

It is clear that you are fixed in what you believe are do not seem to be able to learn from others and that is sad.

I do not care what you believe my dear brother. Obviously you do not agree with a lot that I post.

I said that to say to you that when we come to the New Testament we see clearly that prophesying is not mainly foretelling but rather speaking forth for God, speaking God forth, and ministering God and Christ into people. Here’s what Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:3-5:

" But he who prophesies speaks building up and encouragement and consolation to men.
He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but he who prophesies builds up the church.
I desire that you all speak in tongues, but especially that you would aprophesy; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, that the church may receive building up."

Here we see clearly that to prophesy means NOT TO PREDICT THE FUTURE but to speak something of Christ into people for the building up of the church. To prophesy in the sense of 1 Corinthians 14 is to speak for God and Christ and to speak forth God and Christ, which is to minister and dispense God and Christ into people.
to prophesy is mainly to speak for God and to speak forth God into people!

Now you can acept that and grow or you can reject it, I really do not care and I am not going to argue with anyone about it.

So your saying that prophecy can also mean to reveal teachings from God. Yes I absolutely agree which is why I mentioned divine revelation. You were saying that all that has ceased once the scriptures were written because you reject any teaching that is not supported in the scriptures. My point was that God is still using divine revelation to give new messages and that church tradition does not necessarily have to be supported by the scriptures in order for it to be true. As I’ve pointed out several times Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the Son of God was not supported by scriptures and he could not produce any evidence to support his statement from the scriptures because the prophecies pertaining to the Messiah do not indicate that the Messiah is the Son of God. So even tho there were no scriptures to support Peter’s claim it didn’t mean at all that his statement was false.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Prior to revealing Himself as the resurrected Christ - Jesus does exactly that... .proving that He was the Messiah from scripture alone.

OLD TESTAMENT - TORAH at that ! YES....
Likewise ALL the Apostles preached and taught, proving Yahushua Hamashiach (Jesus) IS THE MESSIAH from TORAH/ PROPHETS, and PSALMS !

But Jesus said it was ANOTHER WAY that Peter learned Jesus is the Messiah. (and likewise others later born again ones)

 

[BobRyan]

To properly understand the Scriptures.....ALL of them must be considered and just not the ones we want to accept.

If YOU choose to believe that there are "Prophets" today who are empowered to tell the future then please go right ahead and believe that.

I DO NOT DO SO! IMO, the office of Apostle and PROPHET has ended when the Scriptures were completed. I say that because that is what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ……..
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

Now those are the exact words. The Perfect can only be the Lord Jesus Christ WHO HAS ALREAD COME or the COMPLETED Scriptures.

1. If Paul was claiming that as of 1 Cor 13:8 no more scripture could exist .. no more prophets could exist then half of the NT is bogus.
2. If having a prophet "alive" means that the "sola scriptura" method was not possible at that time -- THEN the sola scriptura tests of Isaiah 8:20 and Acts 17:11 were bogus at the time those texts were written because they could not have had sola-scriptura anything since by your definition of it - it could not exist then. (The very point that many of our Catholic friends try to make about that Bible teaching)

1 John 4:1 is very clear...……..
"Dear friends, do not believe EVERYone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

He could have written
"Dear friends, do not believe ANYone who claims to speak by the Spirit - because there are no more prophets since 1 Cor 13:8 has already been written. Which means my letter to you - is also not scripture nor are my prophecies valid at this point in time. For there are many false prophets in the world."

His text is edited then to say "do not believe anyone who claims to speak by the Spirit" -- no test needed.

The "test" in that case would be 'if they claim to be a prophet - they are false'.

As for "new facts" about some future event showing up. Well one thing is for sure .. when the second coming actually happens.. we will all know "the fact" of the day and hour that it occurred. A new "fact" learned"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You were saying that all that has ceased once the scriptures were written because you reject any teaching that is not supported in the scriptures. My point was that God is still using divine revelation to give new messages and that church tradition does not necessarily have to be supported by the scriptures in order for it to be true. As

Scripture is True.
If someone teaches anything not supported by Scripture, it is not accepted.
The Bereans did not even accept THE APOSTLES teachings UNTIL they knew it was in harmony with or from Scripture.

 

[Major1]

I wish you had a text saying that.. I could file it for reference.
So until then - the Word of God is unchangeable

Moses was the first prophet to "Write" for others to read what God had shown him. And... he wrote... about creation week. A completed work of God.
He also wrote about the fall of mankind - which had also completed.
He wrote about the world wide flood - a completed work of God.
He wrote about the exodus from Egypt - a completed work of God.

He also spoke about the future.

basically - "no change" from what we see prophets in the NT doing.

In Isaiah 8:20 (OT still not yet complete) yet the "sola scriptura" testing was going on even then.

Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And of course in the NT Paul and John engage in a great deal of prophecy about the future.

YOU DO????

Then consider 1 Corinthians 13:8-10...…….
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but owhen the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

The Completed Bible is the "PERFECT".

Some will argue that it is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Same thing applies. Jesus is the PERFECT and HE HAS COME hence there is no more need for prophecy to be given about the future as the Bible is now a closed book.….

The Scriptures them selves warn us about thinking that there will be prophets in these last days in Revelation 22:18-19...…..
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To properly understand the Scriptures.....ALL of them must be considered and just not the ones we want to accept.

I hope you mean that some posts in many threads on this forum are not properly understanding the Scriptures because they contradict Scripture.
A person/ a little child, can be granted understanding by the Father (WOW - JESUS PRAISED HIM FOR THIS - for granting /revealing SALVATION to "little children" and HIDING IT from educated ones..)

Yes, all wisdom from above is true, and does not contradict any Scripture but is in perfect harmony with all Scripture,
but even the little children to whom the Father reveals/gives understanding
may not <yet> know much of the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and even the NEW TESTAMENT.
Yet they, the little children granted understanding by the Father,
certainly "properly understand the Scriptures" revealed to them by the Father.

 

[BNR32FAN]

To properly understand the Scriptures.....ALL of them must be considered and just not the ones we want to accept.

If YOU choose to believe that there are "Prophets" today who are empowered to tell the future then please go right ahead and believe that.

I DO NOT DO SO! IMO, the office of Apostle and PROPHET has ended when the Scriptures were completed. I say that because that is what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ……..
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

Now those are the exact words. The Perfect can only be the Lord Jesus Christ WHO HAS ALREAD COME or the COMPLETED Scriptures.

1 John 4:1 is very clear...……..
"Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

If there were to be a prophet today. They CAN NOT predict "new truths" about end times and their words will not conflict with or go outside the bounds of scripture.

Revelation 22:18 says, ……..
"If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book."

NOW, that my friend is exactly what the Bible says. YOU are of course free to reject all of this and believe as you wish to believe.

You say prophecy and divine revelation will cease and I’ve shown you two passages of scriptures that specifically say in the end times that people will prophesy and even receive visions.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You say prophecy and divine revelation will cease and I’ve shown you two passages of scriptures that specifically say in the end times that people will prophesy and even receive visions.

sidenote:
The Bible says they will cease (not that they have ceased)...
But realize that almost no one today gets to experience true prophecy and even fewer have divine revelation. The counterfeits, now, that's a whole different ball game, and are very common.

 

[Major1]

So your saying that prophecy can also mean to reveal teachings from God. Yes I absolutely agree which is why I mentioned divine revelation. You were saying that all that has ceased once the scriptures were written because you reject any teaching that is not supported in the scriptures. My point was that God is still using divine revelation to give new messages and that church tradition does not necessarily have to be supported by the scriptures in order for it to be true. As I’ve pointed out several times Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the Son of God was not supported by scriptures and he could not produce any evidence to support his statement from the scriptures because the prophecies pertaining to the Messiah do not indicate that the Messiah is the Son of God. So even tho there were no scriptures to support Peter’s claim it didn’t mean at all that his statement was false.

NO.

I am saying that the words "TO PROPHYSY" does not mean to tell the future but means to EXPLAIN what has already been said in the Bible. it MEANS TO TELL FORTH....TO TEACH!!

What Peter claimed was BEFORE the completed Bible and BEFORE the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Please understand that I AM NOT saying anything. Again...…...I am saying what God has already said.

1 Corth. 13:8-9...…...
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. "

The telling of future events by PROPHESY has ended by my understanding of the above Scripture...……."AS FOR PROPHECIES, THEY WILL CEASE"!

The Bible has been completed...….The Perfect.
Or, Jesus has come and He is The Perfect.

Either one and those are the only TWO that can be perfect, they close the divine revelation from God to men.

 

[Major1]

You say prophecy and divine revelation will cease and I’ve shown you two passages of scriptures that specifically say in the end times that people will prophesy and even receive visions.

NO sir. Neither of those Scriptures say what you want them to say.

The two witnesses will be preaching the Word of God NOT fortelling the future.

The future for them has already ben written and it is found in the completed book of the Revelation.

Then...….even if what you believe is true about prophesy, those two mean will not say one single thing that has not already been said by God in the Bible. Since it has already been said, then it is not actually prophecy but an exegesis of what was said.

I can go through the book of the Revelation verse by verse with you if you would like to do so but that will not make me a Prophet. It will only make me a teacher of what God has said.

THINK>>>>>>

Rev. 22:18019...…….
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

 

[Major1]

sidenote:
The Bible says they will cease (not that they have ceased)...
But realize that almost no one today gets to experience true prophecy and even fewer have divine revelation. The counterfeits, now, that's a whole different ball game, and are very common.

BUT...…...that is the problem my brother.

So called, self proclaimed prophets today stand in front of a congregation, promising blessings, prosperity, healing… and everything your average person wants more of and none of what they don't. There was no mention of sin, repentance, confession, or obedience. Just one blessing after another.

And then, when those blessing do not come, why does the congregation allow that prophet to live?????

The Bible says that a lieing prophet in Deut. 18:20...…...
"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’

Jeremiah 23:14 says...…….
"And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me..."!

 

[Major1]

I hope you mean that some posts in many threads on this forum are not properly understanding the Scriptures because they contradict Scripture.
A person/ a little child, can be granted understanding by the Father (WOW - JESUS PRAISED HIM FOR THIS - for granting /revealing SALVATION to "little children" and HIDING IT from educated ones..)

Yes, all wisdom from above is true, and does not contradict any Scripture but is in perfect harmony with all Scripture,
but even the little children to whom the Father reveals/gives understanding
may not <yet> know much of the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and even the NEW TESTAMENT.
Yet they, the little children granted understanding by the Father,
certainly "properly understand the Scriptures" revealed to them by the Father.

Thank you for the comment.

What I was trying to say to my dear brother is that we must not pull one Scripture out of context and use it for our own personal interpretation of something we want to believe.

Scripture..."ALL" of it must be understood in the light of what it was meant to say when it was written. "CONTEXT!"

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did Jesus ask Peter to PROVE what Peter said with Scripture ?
Absolutely not.
Peter knew Scripture better than anyone here(on the forum) today or ever.
But Peter DID NOT LEARN Christ is the Messiah from Scripture.

My point was that there were no scriptures to support Peter’s claim but it was true nonetheless. Peter received this message by divine revelation as were much of the scriptures not only eye witness accounts but also revelations from God. God has revealed messages to man by divine revelation since creation and he has not ceased. Scriptures say that people will prophesy even in the end times so evidently God has more to reveal that has not yet been revealed.