Sola scriptura or ECF-like traditions of man? Christ in Mark 7

[BryanJohnMaloney]

It means highest of all when it comes to determining essential dogma. That is God's realm. No one is saying that Scripture Alone holds the key to knowing how to light the church candles.

Custom and Reason are not worthless; they can provide answers to all sorts of questions that affect church life, but they are not equal to God's word when it comes to us rightly knowing God's will and intentions for us--which is what this is all about.

So, as you present it, Roman Catholics adhere to Sola Scripture.

 

[Albion]

So, as you present it, Roman Catholics adhere to Sola Scripture.

Well, we both know that the Roman Church doesn't adhere to Sola Scriptura.

But I cannot find anything in my post that could be considered ambiguous, so please do point out what you think makes it sound as though Roman Catholics "adhere to Sola Scriptura."

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Well, we both know that the Roman Church doesn't adhere to Sola Scriptura.

But I cannot find anything in my post that could be considered ambiguous, please do point us to what you think makes it sound as though Roman Catholics "adhere to Sola Scriptura."

The way you describe "Sola Scriptura" is exactly how the Roman Catholics describe their own use of Scripture. It could come from a Roman Catholic Catechism.

 

[Albion]

The way you describe "Sola Scriptura" is exactly how the Roman Catholics describe their own use of Scripture. It could come from a Roman Catholic Catechism.

I know that that's not true, but I cannot comment further, or explain anything, unless I know what you are referring to.

 

[Major1]

That is not sola scriptura (Bible alone) what you are referring to is called prima scriptura (Bible above all). The Catholic Church has always taught prima scriptures they simply rejected sola scriptura. The Bible has always been the ultimate authority on Catholic teachings. This does not mean that every teaching must come from the Bible it means that every teaching cannot contradict the Bible. Sola scriptura is rejected because the Bible was never the only source of God’s word. As I’ve said many times God has spoken thru men by devine revelation since creation which is exactly how we received the scriptures. As I have proved to you in Revelation prophecy has not ended with the compilation of the Bible.

I do not agree.

Only the books of the canon are considered authoritative in matters of faith and practice. The idea of a closed canon is that the Bible is complete; no more books are being added to it. God is not appending His Word.

The canon of Scripture was determined by God, not men. Making this distinction is important. The accepted books were not considered inspired because humans determined that they should be part of the canon; they were included in the canon because God inspired them at the time they were written. God’s people were only responsible for discovering or recognizing the canon. The process of discovery started with Jewish scholars and rabbis and was finalized by the early Christian church by the end of the fourth century.
The closed canon—what are the implications? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Major1]

Scripture is merely highest authority? That admits a valid place for holy tradition, as subservient to Scripture. That's not Scripture alone.

As long as the tradition is supported by Scripture then I would agree.

The word "Holy" does not make is acceptable as THE highest authority.

 

[Major1]

The passage says where there is prophecy what about where there is not prophecy yet? This does not mean that no one will ever prophecize ever again. Your reaching for something that isn’t there. There’s not enough evidence to support that after the scriptures are written no one will ever prophecize or receive revelation from God. Revelation 11:3 is proof that you are wrong sir.

Look at the end times in revelation

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

However you think.....the word there "Prophesy" does NOT MEAN A NEW REVELATION FROM GOD!

It means...……….. They Should preach the sincere word of God, and denounce the divine judgments against the reigning idolatry and wickedness: and this they should continue to do, as long as the grand corruption itself should last, for the space of twelve hundred and sixty days, which is the same space of time with the forty and two months, before mentioned, the period assigned for the tyranny and idolatry of the Church of Rome.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not agree.

Only the books of the canon are considered authoritative in matters of faith and practice. The idea of a closed canon is that the Bible is complete; no more books are being added to it. God is not appending His Word.

The canon of Scripture was determined by God, not men. Making this distinction is important. The accepted books were not considered inspired because humans determined that they should be part of the canon; they were included in the canon because God inspired them at the time they were written. God’s people were only responsible for discovering or recognizing the canon. The process of discovery started with Jewish scholars and rabbis and was finalized by the early Christian church by the end of the fourth century.
The closed canon—what are the implications? | GotQuestions.org

So your bible has 73 books then? Surely you are opposed to Martin Luther removing 7 books? You understand that the Bible was compiled thru the Catholic Church right?

 

[BNR32FAN]

However you think.....the word there "Prophesy" does NOT MEAN A NEW REVELATION FROM GOD!

It means...……….. They Should preach the sincere word of God, and denounce the divine judgments against the reigning idolatry and wickedness: and this they should continue to do, as long as the grand corruption itself should last, for the space of twelve hundred and sixty days, which is the same space of time with the forty and two months, before mentioned, the period assigned for the tyranny and idolatry of the Church of Rome.

You simply can’t admit your wrong can you? Now your disputing God’s word. Be careful of Pride my friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

However you think.....the word there "Prophesy" does NOT MEAN A NEW REVELATION FROM GOD!

It means...……….. They Should preach the sincere word of God, and denounce the divine judgments against the reigning idolatry and wickedness: and this they should continue to do, as long as the grand corruption itself should last, for the space of twelve hundred and sixty days, which is the same space of time with the forty and two months, before mentioned, the period assigned for the tyranny and idolatry of the Church of Rome.

prophēteúō G4395
Prophecy:
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict a) to prophesy b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office


Grammar:

from προφήτης; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

 

[Major1]

So your bible has 73 books then? Surely you are opposed to Martin Luther removing 7 books? You understand that the Bible was compiled thru the Catholic Church right?

And here is where the deliberate deception enters. The claim is made about the “Catholic Church” not the “Roman Catholic Church” as most readers would assume. The word “catholic” simply means “universal.” So in that sense, it could be argued that the writers of the New Testament were of the “universal” body of believers which did, in fact, exist, before New Testament times. However, the implication that it is only the declaration of the Roman Catholic Church “that the books of the New Testament are all inspired by God constitutes the sole authority for the universal belief of both Catholics and Protestants in their inspired character” is both incorrect and blasphemous.
Did the Roman Catholic Church Really Give Us the Bible?

 

[Major1]

You simply can’t admit your wrong can you? Now your disputing God’s word. Be careful of Pride my friend.

When and IF I am I have not problem saying so. But this is not the time.

 

[Major1]

prophēteúō G4395
Prophecy:
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict a) to prophesy b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office


Grammar:

from προφήτης; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible...………….
"And they shall prophesy" - The word “prophesy” does not necessarily mean that they would predict future events; but the sense is, that they would give utterance to the truth as God had revealed it.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
"prophesy" — preach under the inspiration of the Spirit, denouncing judgments against the apostate.

Vincent's Word Studies
Commonly explained of preaching repentance,

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
The sacred writer assures us that God would raise up some true and faithful witnesses, to preach and protest against the innovations mentioned in the preceding verse:

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Prophesy—All true preaching is prophecy, for it predicts man’s future destiny, and comes from a divine power. The whole gospel is a solemn prophecy.

 

[Major1]

So, as you present it, Roman Catholics adhere to Sola Scripture.

You are kidding us ...right???

The RCC itself tells us that they do not even accept the Bible mush less Sola Scriptura.

The Catholic faith contradicts the Bible in what it teaches. Tp point out just a few...……….

The Bible says that Calling the Priests "Father" is forbidden.
The Bible says that Praying repetitive words using Rosary beads is forbidden.
The Bible says that Mary has no part in mans salvation.
The Bible says that All Christians are saints.
The Bible says that All Christians are priests.
The Bible says that Bishops must be Married.
The Bible says that Peter was married.
The Bible says that veneration of idols, icons and images violates the 2nd commandment.

Are you sure you want to continue with this?????

 

[Major1]

You simply can’t admit your wrong can you? Now your disputing God’s word. Be careful of Pride my friend.

NO SIR. I am simply explaining the meaning of the word "Prophesy" to you as used in the New Test.

It is clear that you are fixed in what you believe are do not seem to be able to learn from others and that is sad.

I do not care what you believe my dear brother. Obviously you do not agree with a lot that I post.

I said that to say to you that when we come to the New Testament we see clearly that prophesying is not mainly foretelling but rather speaking forth for God, speaking God forth, and ministering God and Christ into people. Here’s what Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:3-5:

" But he who prophesies speaks building up and encouragement and consolation to men.
He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but he who prophesies builds up the church.
I desire that you all speak in tongues, but especially that you would aprophesy; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, that the church may receive building up."

Here we see clearly that to prophesy means NOT TO PREDICT THE FUTURE but to speak something of Christ into people for the building up of the church. To prophesy in the sense of 1 Corinthians 14 is to speak for God and Christ and to speak forth God and Christ, which is to minister and dispense God and Christ into people.
to prophesy is mainly to speak for God and to speak forth God into people!

Now you can acept that and grow or you can reject it, I really do not care and I am not going to argue with anyone about it.

 

[Major1]

prophēteúō G4395
Prophecy:
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict a) to prophesy b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office


Grammar:

from προφήτης; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

While what you posted is absolutely true, one must also realize that there was a change between the Old Test. PROPHETS and New Test. Preachers. Failure to recognize that leads to false teachings.

With the completion of the New Testament canon, prophesying changed from declaring new revelation to declaring the completed revelation God has already given. Jude 3 speaks of “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (emphasis added). In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations.
What is the spiritual gift of prophecy? | GotQuestions.org

 

[BobRyan]

So many new "just ECFs -- and NOT the Bible" threads recently turning from scripture and insisting that traditions of man are all that matters... 2 minutes ago #228

What did Christ say?

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Not saying that all ECF statements are errors of man - only that scripture is the "Gold standard" and not the other way around

Paul himself "tested" sola scriptura
Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"


Real letters and documents: false teaching
Acts 20
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert,

False apostles and fake letters

Paul says "if WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should come to you with a different gospel let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-9

That is not even possible if one is using the rule "it came from an apostle... it must be true"

2 Cor 11
12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

fake letters
2 Thess 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us
======================================
see also
A moment ago #293


Notice - I believe in sola scriptura -- which means I predict that scripture alone will debunk any sort of error raised against it.

No wonder then that the scripture that does it - would be the focus and solution for complaints against the very practice we see in scripture.

It is like saying "here is the medicine that will cure that sickness" and then each time the sickness shows up -- "that same medicine" appears as the solution. Not all that surprising.

I can't believe I started this thread and then forgot to click on the "watch thread" check box. Sorry about that.

 

[BobRyan]

With the completion of the New Testament canon, prophesying changed from declaring new revelation to declaring the completed revelation God has already given.

I wish you had a text saying that.. I could file it for reference.
So until then - the Word of God is unchangeable

Moses was the first prophet to "Write" for others to read what God had shown him. And... he wrote... about creation week. A completed work of God.
He also wrote about the fall of mankind - which had also completed.
He wrote about the world wide flood - a completed work of God.
He wrote about the exodus from Egypt - a completed work of God.

He also spoke about the future.

basically - "no change" from what we see prophets in the NT doing.

In Isaiah 8:20 (OT still not yet complete) yet the "sola scriptura" testing was going on even then.

Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And of course in the NT Paul and John engage in a great deal of prophecy about the future.

 

[BobRyan]

prophēteúō G4395
Prophecy:
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict a) to prophesy b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office


Grammar:

from προφήτης; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

And of course

Numbers 12
"If there is a prophet among you I will make Myself known to him by a dream or a vision" - divine revelation as opposed to "some very good ideas I had yesterday"

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What scripture did Peter have to support his claim? Was he wrong?

Did Jesus ask Peter to PROVE what Peter said with Scripture ?
Absolutely not.
Peter knew Scripture better than anyone here(on the forum) today or ever.
But Peter DID NOT LEARN Christ is the Messiah from Scripture.