The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[Tra Phull]

10 Roman emperors - many have tried to make that fit

10 Jewish leaders - more far-fetched IMO
But we will see

 

[mkgal1]

Maarschalk has these Jewish generals as the "ten horns". These generals were given authority in 66 A.D. and led Israel into war with Rome. Who are the ten horns for those that believe the fourth kingdom is Rome?

Here's the list of Jewish generals:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion (Governor of Jerusalem)
2. Ananus, the high priest (Governor of Jerusalem)
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests (Idumaea)
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest (Idumaea)
5. Niger of Perea, the then governor of Idumea (Idumaea)
6. Joseph, the son of Simon (Jericho)
7. Manasseh (Perea)
8. John, the Esscue (toparchy of Thamna; “Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus”)
9. John, the son of Matthias (toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene)
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias (both the Galilees; “Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command”) Chapter 20 - The Works of Flavius Josephus

 

[mkgal1]

An 11th Horn, “A Little Horn”
In the following sections we will see that Daniel was told a great deal about another character spoken of as “a little horn.” This person is not spoken of in the book of Revelation by this title, but only here in Daniel 7. According to Daniel 7:8, 21-22, 24-27 this person would:

[A] come up among the 10 horns
pluck out three of the first horns
[C] have a mouth speaking pompous words
[D] make war against the saints
[E] be different than the other 10 horns
[F] “intend to change times and the law”
[G] and prevail against the saints for 3.5 years until the coming of the Ancient of Days and the possession of the kingdom by the saints.

A Little Horn Coming Up Among the 10 Horns (Daniel 7:8, 20-21, 24-26)
As Daniel was considering the 10 horns, he saw a little horn coming up among them. He had “eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words” (Daniel 7:8). Even though he was “little,” his “appearance was greater than his fellows” (Daniel 7:20). At this point, I believe this 11th horn was either Eleazar ben Simon (my top choice) or John Levi of Gischala (my second choice). Both were prominent leaders of the Zealots in Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 AD. (We will take a closer look at the Zealots in our study of Revelation 13.)

If Eleazar was the 11th horn, how did he “come up among” the 10 horns? Josephus wrote in Wars 2.20.3 that it was surprising that Eleazar was not appointed as one of the 10 generals for the war because he was credited with leading the victory against Cestius Gallus in November 66 AD. However, the reason he was not chosen with the other 10 was because of his “tyrannical temper.” Still the people in Jerusalem submitted to his authority anyway:

“…for they did not ordain Eleazar the son of Simon to that office [as one of the 10 generals], although he had gotten into his possession the prey they had taken from the Romans, and the money they had taken from Cestius, together with a great part of the public treasures, because they saw he was of a tyrannical temper, and that his followers were, in their behavior, like guards about him. However, the want they were in of Eleazar’s money, and the subtle tricks used by him, brought all so about, that the people were circumvented, and submitted themselves to his authority in all public affairs.”

If John of Gischala was the 11th horn, how did he “come up among” the 10 horns? Around this same time, John tried to convince the authorities in Jerusalem to remove Josephus from the position of governor of the Galileans, and to give that position to him instead. Gischala was John Levi’s native city, but it was located in Galilee, and John was displeased when he found out that Josephus had been appointed as the governor of Galilee:

“But the hatred that John, the son of Levi, bore to me, grew now more violent, while he could not bear my prosperity with patience. So he proposed to himself, by all means possible, to make away with me; and built the walls of Gischala, which was the place of his nativity. He then sent his brother Simon, and Jonathan, the son of Sisenna, and about a hundred armed men, to Jerusalem, to Simon, the son of Gamaliel, in order to persuade him to induce the commonalty of Jerusalem to take from me the government over the Galileans, and to give their suffrages for conferring that authority upon him” (Life of Flavius Josephus, 38 [189]).

Soon afterward, though, Josephus had a dream in which he was told that John’s schemes against him would not succeed and that he would live to fight the Romans (Life, 42). John Levi eventually made it to Jerusalem in November 67 AD (Wars 4.2.4), and before long he was able to seize control of part of the city. ~ Daniel 7: The Fourth Beast, 10 Horns, Three Horns, and a Little Horn

 

[Tra Phull]

I don't know how to even start on who the 10 Roman kings are

Some think 10 Roman emperors
Some think various kingdoms strung out in history

I just don't know

 

[Tra Phull]

That was pretty weak, perhaps I should try to PERSONUP and expound a little.

Lists of emperors vary, in general, a lot of folks try to END UP with an emperor reigning when Revelation was written, whether they think that was Nero or Domitian. Most preterists of any kind take the early date/Nero date, but some partial prets have no problem with a Domitian date.

So we are looking at probably as early as 66 AD and as late as 95 AD for the writing of Revelation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'll admit that this is actually a new area for me to study (eschatology).

These are the key details in what you all are discussing.....correct?

The Fourth Beast
It’s this fourth beast that we will focus on in the rest of our study of Daniel 7. After this part of Daniel’s vision (Daniel 7:1-8) he goes on to learn that the fourth beast would be a fourth kingdom, and it would be slain “and given to the burning flame” (Daniel 7:11, 23). He also learns that the little horn would make war against the saints and “intend to change times and the law” (Daniel 7:21, 24-25). The little horn would prevail against the saints for 3.5 years until the Ancient of Days would come and the saints would possess the kingdom (Daniel 7:21-22, 25-27)


Ten Horns of the Beast (Daniel 7:7, 20, 24)
Daniel observes that the fourth beast had 10 horns (verse 7). In verse 20 Daniel asked about those 10 horns and it was revealed to him that they “are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom” (verse 24). Daniel wasn’t told anything else about those 10 horns, but in Revelation 17:12-17 John learns that they [1] would “receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast” [2] would “give their power and authority to the beast” [3] would make war with the Lamb but be overcome by the Lamb [4] would “hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire” [5] and would “give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled.”​

Fortunately for us and the Jews, there are only 2 Beasts to contend with in Revelation

The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

Revelation 13:
1 And I was standing on the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a wild-beast ascending having 10 horns and 7 heads
and upon the horns of it, ten diadems and upon the heads of it names of blasphemy.

11 And I saw another beast ascending out of the land,
and it had two horns like-as a lambkin and it spoke as a Dragon
=============================
The Beast out of the Land intrigues me the most..........

Reve 13:11-18 "WILD BEAST OUT OF THE LAND/EARTH"

 

[Tra Phull]

For anyone New to eschatology, I wanted to talk about how certain (liberal) scholars view the book of Daniel, I don't buy into their stuff, I just want to create awareness.

 

[Tra Phull]

These scholars - and I am going to get this out in my own words -

they don't believe Daniel was a real guy at all.

They believe book of Daniel was written in Macabeean Times, like 167AD. There is a Dan' El in Canaanite/ Ugaritic mythology, they think " Daniel" is based on this figure.

They consider what we see as prophecy as EX EVENTU prophecy, written after the fact.
In 70 weeks, they see MESSIAH as simply "AN ANNOINTED ONE" - designating High Priest Onias III as this ANNOINTED ONE.

The one piece of true stuff they go on is that Daniel is NOT in the Hebrew section of Bible called the PROPHETS, it is in the WRITINGS. That Jesus refers to DANIEL THE PROPHET is ignored by these liberal Bible giants.

 

[Tra Phull]

Some of these "no real Daniel" scholars do not combine Medes and Persians into one empire.

Earlier in this thread, "our Daniel" showed they are combined into one empire, one ram with 2 horns represents them.

 

[Tra Phull]

So these "Bible giants" of liberal academia end up with Greece as 4th kingdom.

Any "actual prophecy" either passed away or is never coming.

When I pick up an edition of the Bible I have never seen, I go straight to the Introduction of Daniel to see where these yay-good are comin' from - I can tell on the first page of that introduction.

 

[Tra Phull]

Yay-good should be yay-hoos

Incorrect is killing' me - no edit button - sometimes it appears, sometimes not.

 

[Tra Phull]

Autocorrect, not incorrect.

Anyway, even among good scholars who believe in a real Daniel the Prophet - this 10 kings/emperors is all over the place - vast.

 

[Tra Phull]

I have no way to disprove any of mkgal 1 s Jewish generals

I wish I had a Roman emperor list like it, but I don't.

I just don't see Jews as ever "trampling down the whole world" in any way, shape or form.

Not in Macabeean/Hasmo n e an Times were Jews ever an empire on the order of Babylon, Medo-Persia or Alexander's Greece - or Rome

 

[mkgal1]

I have no way to disprove any of mkgal 1 s Jewish generals

I wish I had a Roman emperor list like it, but I don't.

I just don't see Jews as ever "trampling down the whole world" in any way, shape or form.

Not in Macabeean/Hasmonean Times were Jews ever an empire on the order of Babylon, Medo-Persia or Alexander's Greece - or Rome

I don't have an answer now (that I'm completely settled on) about the "trampling down the whole world" part - but I do believe Paul, Timothy, and Luke made reference to the Gospel "going out to the whole world" - and wrote it as past tense - in Colossians 1:2; Col 1:5-6; Romans 10:14-18; Romans 16:26; 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47.

As I understand it, the "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23).

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON
This is a Partial Preterist safe house. This is a no debate zone.
ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[mkgal1]

I just don't see Jews as ever "trampling down the whole world" in any way, shape or form.

Not in Macabeean/Hasmonean Times were Jews ever an empire on the order of Babylon, Medo-Persia or Alexander's Greece - or Rome

I'm still working through Maarschalk's series on this.

Quoting Adam Maarschalk:
In the previous post, “Daniel 2: Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece/Macedonia,” we began to look at Daniel 2 and the image in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream that represented four kingdoms. We saw that the first three kingdoms are clearly identified in the book of Daniel as Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. In this post we will examine the transition from the third kingdom to the fourth kingdom, which is also the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and “the beast” of Revelation.

“In the latter time” of the third kingdom, the infamous Antiochus Epiphanes rose to power, fulfilling Daniel 8:23-26. Daniel was told that he would be broken (verse 25) and this took place in 164 BC. It’s commonly taught that at this point in history, dominion over Israel passed from the hands of Greece to Rome. However, no such transfer actually took place. In fact, neither Daniel 8 nor Daniel 11 mention (or even allude to) Rome’s takeover of Greece. Why is this significant?

As we’ve seen, the transition from the first kingdom (Babylon) to the second kingdom (Medo-Persia) is described in Daniel 5:30-31. The transition from the second kingdom to the third kingdom (Greece) is described in Daniel 8:1-7. Daniel is only shown the destiny of the Greek kingdom up until the breaking of Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 8:25), and Daniel 11:32 likewise depicts an uprising against Antiochus Ephiphanes. The perfect time to predict Rome’s conquest of Greece would have been in either Daniel 8 or Daniel 11, since Macedonia was established as a province of the Roman republic in 146 BC, but Daniel didn’t do that.

If Rome was the fourth kingdom foreseen in Daniel 2:40-43 and Daniel 7:7, then the book of Daniel never described the transition from the third kingdom to the fourth kingdom as it did for the previous transitions. What if the description of the Maccabees in Daniel 11:32-35 has everything to do with the transition from the third kingdom to the fourth kingdom? Israel was about to be under no one’s dominion at all.

Kingdom #3 (Bronze / Belly and Thighs) to Kingdom #4 (Iron and Iron-Clay / Legs and Feet)

II Maccabees 5:2-4 describes a prolonged supernatural event seen by “people all over Jerusalem” in 164 BC:

“For nearly forty days people all over Jerusalem saw visions of cavalry troops in gold armor charging across the sky. The riders were armed with spears and their swords were drawn. They were lined up in battle against one another, attacking and counterattacking. Shields were clashing, there was a rain of spears, and arrows flew through the air. All the different kinds of armor and the gold bridles on the horses flashed in the sunlight. Everyone in the city prayed that these visions might be a good sign.”


When the same vision was seen nearly 230 years later (Wars 6.5.3), it was not a good sign for Jerusalem. This time it was, though. The Jewish Virtual Library continues its overview of Israel’s history by discussing Israel’s transition from dominance by the Greeks/Macedonians to full independence in 142 BC (see the previous post for the first part of this overview):

The Jews Regain Their Independence
It took more than two decades of fighting before the Maccabees forced the Seleucids to retreat from the Land of Israel. By this time Antiochus had died and his successor agreed to the Jews’ demand for independence. In the year 142 BCE, after more than 500 years of subjugation, the Jews were again masters of their own fate.

When Mattathias died, the revolt was led by his son Judas, or Judah Maccabee, as he is often called. By the end of the war, Simon was the only one of the five sons of Mattathias to survive and he ushered in an 80-year period of Jewish independence in Judea, as the Land of Israel was now called. The kingdom regained boundaries not far short of Solomon’s realm and Jewish life flourished.

The Hasmoneans claimed not only the throne of Judah, but also the post of High Priest. This assertion of religious authority conflicted with the tradition of the priests coming from the descendants of Moses’ brother Aaron and the tribe of Levi.

Contrary to my previous assumptions, dominion over Israel did not pass from the Greek Empire to the Roman Empire. In fact, when Israel defeated Macedonia, the Republic of Rome expressed its congratulations and an alliance was confirmed between Rome and Israel:

“And all the land of Juda was at rest all the days of Simon, and he sought the good of his nation: and his power, and his glory pleased them well all his days. And with all his glory he took Joppe for a haven, and made an entrance to the isles of the sea. And he enlarged the bounds of his nation, and made himself master of the country… the fame of his glory was renowned even to the end of the earth. He made peace in the land, and Israel rejoiced with great joy. And every man sat under his vine, and under his fig tree: and there was none to make them afraid…

And it was heard at Rome, and as far as Sparta, that Jonathan was dead: and they were very sorry. But when they heard that Simon his brother was made high priest in his place, and was possessed of all the country, and the cities therein: They wrote to him in tables of brass, to renew the friendship and alliance which they had made with Judas, and with Jonathan his brethren… And after this Simon sent Numenius to Rome, with a great shield of gold the weight of a thousand pounds, to confirm the league with them” (I Maccabees 14:4-24).​

~ Rome Congratulated Israel on Becoming the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2​

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Hello Daniel.
How much of Matthew 24 do you view as fulfilled?

You appear to be more futurist than preterist.


How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled (2)

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled (2)
Post #27

View Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled 39 24.38%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled 66 41.25%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled 22 13.75%

I don't really know 15 9.38%

Other [please explain] 18 11.25%

Every single word of Mathew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 was fulfilled by the end of the war in Judea in 70 ad. As was Revelation 6:9-7:8 and 14:1-5. Along with Daniel 11-12 and many other prophecies ABOUT THE END OF THAT AGE! The end of the Old Covenant Age.

HOWEVER!!! Those prophecies have absolutely nothing to do with the end time prophecies about THE END OF THE AGE OF THE FOUR GENTILE EMPIRES. (And the judgements decreed against the city of Rome for its murder of the saints.) Other than the end of the Old Covenant age left the saints still right smack dab in the middle of the age of those four gentile empires.

More importantly than this. The age of promise, that has a greater body of prophecy than the end time prophecies of those two ages did not begin until the age of those gentile empires ended. That was just 500 years ago.

So your right I’m not a preterist but I am just like everyone is who believes some Bible prophecy has been fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hello Daniel.
How much of Matthew 24 do you view as fulfilled?

You appear to be more futurist than preterist.

Every single word of Mathew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 was fulfilled by the end of the war in Judea in 70 ad. As was Revelation 6:9-7:8 and 14:1-5. Along with Daniel 11-12 and many other prophecies ABOUT THE END OF THAT AGE! The end of the Old Covenant Age.

HOWEVER!!! Those prophecies have absolutely nothing to do with the end time prophecies about THE END OF THE AGE OF THE FOUR GENTILE EMPIRES. (And the judgements decreed against the city of Rome for its murder of the saints.) Other than the end of the Old Covenant age left the saints still right smack dab in the middle of the age of those four gentile empires.

More importantly than this. The age of promise, that has a greater body of prophecy than the end time prophecies of those two ages did not begin until the age of those gentile empires ended. That was just 500 years ago.

So your right I’m not a preterist but I am just like everyone is who believes some Bible prophecy has been fulfilled.

I fully agree with that and thanks for posting.
I actually am working on Daniel 11 in conjunction with the 1st century Jewish Wars leading up to 70AD and possible Armageddon..............

Daniel 11 and the great North/Israel/Gentiles vs South/Judah War

Daniel 10:1
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed to Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, even a great warfare<6635>
and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

Daniel 11 is a great chapter in the Bible and it appears to be talking about the "great warfare" in Daniel 10:1 involving a type of "Civil War" between the North and South.

1‘And I, in the first year of Darius the Mede, my standing [is] for a strengthener, and for a stronghold to him;
2and, now, truth I declare to thee, Lo, yet three kings are standing for Persia, and the fourth doth become far richer than all, and according to his strength by his riches he stirreth up the whole, with the kingdom of Javan. 3And a mighty king hath stood, and he hath ruled a great dominion, and hath done according to his will; 4and according to his standing is his kingdom broken, and divided to the four winds of the heavens, and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion that he ruled, for his kingdom is plucked up — and for others apart from these.

First, let's show the verses where King of the North and King of the South are used.

The phrase "King of the North" and "King of the South" are used only in Daniel 11 of the OT. Both of those are sometimes used in the same verses

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

NKJV]
Dan 11:5
5 “Also the king of the South shall become strong, as well as one of his princes; and he shall gain power over him and have dominion. His dominion shall be a great dominion.

6 “And at the end of some years they shall join forces, for the daughter of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North to make an agreement; but she shall not retain the power of her authority,[fn] and neither he nor his authority[fn] shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times.

7 “But from a branch of her roots one shall arise in his place, who shall come with an army, enter the fortress of the king of the North, and deal with them and prevail.

8 “And he shall also carry their gods captive to Egypt, with their princes[fn] and their precious articles of silver and gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the North.

9 “Also the king of the North shall come to the kingdom of the king of the South, but shall return to his own land.

11 “And the king of the South shall be moved with rage, and go out and fight with him, with the king of the North, who shall muster a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into the hand of his enemy.

13 “For the king of the North will return and muster a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come at the end of some years with a great army and much equipment.

14 “Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South. Also, violent men[fn] of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall.

15 “So the king of the North shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces[fn] of the South shall not withstand him. Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist.

25 “He shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the South with a great army. And the king of the South shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise plans against him.

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
======================

 

[Tra Phull]

"In the days of these kings" would God's kingdom be set up.

Seems like Rome.

Jews/Macabees/Hasmoneans were no longer in power, Rome was, when Jesus came. His kingdom is now here.

 

[mkgal1]

Jews/Macabees/Hasmoneans were no longer in power, Rome was, when Jesus came. His kingdom is now here.

It's true that Israel was under Roman occupation - but I'm still wresting with all this. God hadn't given Rome any religious legal authority - that was given to the Israelites (and I'm thinking this is what's front and center on this - religious legal authority). That's why, I believe, it's ancient Jerusalem that's the "harlot" - because there was no expectation for the Roman Empire to be faithful to God.