The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[Tra Phull]

YES, UGH.
But only thing that is not online, is Lamsa' s bible from Syriac Peshitta.

 

[mkgal1]

YES, UGH.
But only thing that is not online, is Lamsa' s bible from Syriac Peshitta.

Are you Syrian, Tra? Not to get too personal.

 

[Tra Phull]

No, I am a WASP from Texas

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, I am a WASP from Texas

Me too.

That aside, John Wayne's movie the Alamo is a favorite movie of mine [saw it at the movies when it first came out.
It is fairly similar to the fight battle of "the 300 Spartans" and the siege of 70AD Jerusalem.
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Storyline
In 1836, General Santa Anna and the Mexican Army is sweeping across Texas. To be able to stop him, General Sam Houston needs time to get his main force into shape. To buy that time he orders Colonel William Travis to defend a small mission on the Mexicans' route at all costs. Travis' small troop is swelled by groups accompanying Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett, but as the situation becomes ever more desperate Travis makes it clear there will be no shame if they leave while they can.

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In 1962 a movie called "The 300 Spartans" was released that told the same story as Frank Miller's recent "300". The old movie was campy and ridiculous in only the way that '50s and '60s historical epics can be. What I've done here is reconstruct the recent "300" trailer using shots and dialogue from the old 1962 movie, "The 300 Spartans". It's pretty much shot-for-shot accurate, even down to the opening studio logos.

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The entire documentary on the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This massive battle is one of the most stunning of all antiquity. On display were impressive siege works and feats of bravery on both the Roman and Jewish sides as they fought mercilessly over every inch of Jerusalem. Fighting would even make its way up the the inner sanctums of the Temple Mount and witness the destruction of the Second Temple.

 

[Tra Phull]

Your drive of Jerusalem stuff is good, LLOJ, I watched it all yesterday.

Now I am in partial Preterist safe house, wondering about similarities between battles of Thermopylae and Alamo...

Anyway, among PP' s - I want to bring up what I refer to as "reverse date-setting" -the idea that it has to be 7 years or 3 1/2 years from now before Christ comes back.

Silly.

 

[Tra Phull]

Reverse date-setting is this whole schmiel of "Christ can't return til a temple is rebuilt!"

I believe Christ can return at any moment, or not for a thousand years. Existentially, I could get run over by a truck today, walking along thinking about Daniel's 70 weeks and not looking where I am going.

A thread about 2Thess 2 not meaning man of sin sitting in a physical Temple comes into play...

Partial Preterism is a very loosely-defined position. Some things happened in 70 AD, some things are still to come.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Your drive of Jerusalem stuff is good, LLOJ, I watched it all yesterday.

Now I am in partial Preterist safe house, wondering about similarities between battles of Thermopylae and Alamo...

Anyway, among PP' s - I want to bring up what I refer to as "reverse date-setting" -the idea that it has to be 7 years or 3 1/2 years from now before Christ comes back.

Silly.

There is also the final siege at Masada in 73AD that broke the back of the Jewish/Zealot Rebellion.
The same person that made the 70AD Jerusalem video also created a video on the siege of Masada, which showed the resolved and determination of the Roman army to quash the Jewish rebellion....

For now, I view all of Daniel as fulfilled in the 1st century.......

Eze 20:38 “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hos 5:2 The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.
Dan 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century concluding in Judea/Jerusalem 70ad

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battles and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass,
but the end is not yet.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
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Siege of Masada - Wikipedia
Date Late 72 – early 73 (traditional date)
Late 73 – early 74 CE (proposed date)[1][2]

Masada, Israel (then part of Judaea Province)Result Roman victory

Belligerents
Jewish Sicarii Roman Empire
Commanders and leaders
Eleazar ben Ya'ir † Lucius Flavius Silva
Strength
967, including non-combatants Legio X Fretensis 4,800
Auxiliaries and slaves 4,000–10,000
Casualties and losses
960 dead, 7 captured (2 women, 5 children), according to Josephus
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In 73 AD Masada, the impregnable mountain fortress in the Judaean desert, stood as the final holdout against the onslaught of Rome’s legions. The siege that followed would mark the final, bloody suppression of the Jewish revolt with an encounter whose awe inspiring remains can still be seen in the desert today!
Literary Sources: "The Jewish Revolt" by Si Sheppard "The Forts of Judaea" by Samuel Rocca "Legions of Rome" by Stephen Dando-Collins "Uniforms of the Roman World" by Kevin Kiley

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Another great commentary on the Jewish Wars leading up to the siege and destruction of 70AD

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance. A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful. The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : "When ye see (he had said to his disciples) the abomination of desolation, spoken or by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, [11] and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (or camps,) then let those who are in the midst of Jerusalem depart, and let not those who are in the country enter into her," for " then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Matt. xxiv. 15, 21 ; Luke xxi. 20, 1-11. These armies, we do not hesitate to affirm were those of the Romans, who now invested the city. From the time of the Babylonian captivity, idolatry had been held as an abomination by the Jews. This national aversion was manifested even against the images of their gods and emperors, which the Roman armies carried in their standards ; so that, in a time of peace, Pilate, and afterwards Vitellius, at the request of some eminent Jews, on this account avoided marching their forces throu' Judea. Of the desolating disposition which now governed the Roman army, the history of the Jewish war, and especially of the final demolition of the holy city, presents an awful and signal example. Jerusalem was not captured merely, but, with its celebrated temple, laid in ruins. Lest, however, the army of Titus should not be sufficiently designated by this expression, our LORD adds, "Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matt. xxiv. 28. The Jewish state, indeed, at this time, was fitly compared to a carcass. The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

As much as I hate to keep harping on this. All this stuff is merely academic. The tragic error in it though arises once the coming of the Lord is misidentified as various end of the world as we know it events. The reason it’s so tragic is because embracing end of the world events as truth carries natural consequences with it that cannot be fully avoided.

The historical fact that everyone should be observing in all these academics is that when Christ came not only did things NOT GET BETTER for true believers. It can be argued that their situation on earth got worse. Eventually empires, not just the Roman one made war on them and totally overcame them. Subjecting them to all kinds of genocidal horrors and if allowed to live at all made 2nd class citizens in the lands the dwelled in.

Yet in the book of Daniel along with hundreds of other chapters of Bible prophecy. Verses like this were declared. 7:32
22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.

Nothing of this sort began to occur in the earth until the fourth of the four gentile empires ended and the general population began to get access to Bibles. Then they had to win this by converting masses, being more politically influential than the wicked and defeating despotic human government in war.

Where does this fit in to end of the world doctrines?

 

[ebedmelech]

I jump in here to advise another good book on this. I've referred to it earlier:

"Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry

 

[mkgal1]

That's on my list. Speaking of Kenneth Gentry Jr books - I just got the ebook of this book he contributed to (and it's less than $6 - right now anyway):

It's helpful to have the other views as a comparison.

 

[ebedmelech]

That's on my list. Speaking of Kenneth Gentry Jr books - I just got the ebook of this book he contributed to (and it's less than $6 - right now anyway):

It's helpful to have the other views as a comparison.

Also good is this book by Steve Gregg, on the four dominant views of Revelation:

Great for reference also.

 

[mkgal1]

Also good is this book by Steve Gregg, on the four dominant views of Revelation:

Great for reference also.

Thanks! You know what? That's the book I thought I was buying (at least I didn't spend too much on the first one)

 

[Tra Phull]

A while back, I got Sproul's LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO JESUS.
But it didn't really tell me much about Partial Preterism that I didn't already know.

 

[William Lefranc]

A while back, I got Sproul's LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO JESUS.
But it didn't really tell me much about Partial Preterism that I didn't already know.

What do you need to know?

 

[Tra Phull]

Maybe I already know - some things happened by 70 AD - some things still to come. That's partial preterism

 

[William Lefranc]

Maybe I already know - some things happened by 70 AD - some things still to come. That's partial preterism

You are being very vague. Can you be more concrete?

 

[Tra Phull]

Vague has nothing to do with it - and the only CONCRETE thing I know is that among Christians, there are wildly different eschatologies, and they cannot all be true.

Partial Preterism is wide open to me, it could include Amillennialism or not, it could be classed Futurist in that some things have not occurred yet.

I am sure that I would not even agree with all other partial preterists, and that doesn't matter.

Some things predicted in Olivet Discourse have occurred, I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Every stone of the Temple was torn down in 70 AD, wailing wall was a Roman fort, does not negate the prophecy.

So Partial Preterism is an eschatology with some things fulfilled already, and some not. If some want to consider that VAGUE - so be it. I see it as a wide open approach that does not seek to have a pat answer to everything.

I lean toward Revelation being written before Jerusalem fell, but Partial Preterism does not fall apart if it was written 95 AD

The Middle East may or may not be integral to the End Times, the 1000 year reign may or may not be literal, the TEMPLE OF GOD that son of perdition sits in may or may not be a physical stone temple; much was written about us being temples, and that was written while stone temple still stood.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Vague has nothing to do with it - and the only CONCRETE thing I know is that among Christians, there are wildly different eschatologies, and they cannot all be true.

Partial Preterism is wide open to me, it could include Amillennialism or not, it could be classed Futurist in that some things have not occurred yet.

I am sure that I would not even agree with all other partial preterists, and that doesn't matter.

Some things predicted in Olivet Discourse have occurred, I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Every stone of the Temple was torn down in 70 AD, wailing wall was a Roman fort, does not negate the prophecy.

So Partial Preterism is an eschatology with some things fulfilled already, and some not. If some want to consider that VAGUE - so be it. I see it as a wide open approach that does not seek to have a pat answer to everything.

I lean toward Revelation being written before Jerusalem fell, but Partial Preterism does not fall apart if it was written 95 AD

The Middle East may or may not be integral to the End Times, the 1000 year reign may or may not be literal, the TEMPLE OF GOD that son of perdition sits in may or may not be a physical stone temple; much was written about us being temples, and that was written while stone temple still stood.

I realize know one wants to believe this. But there are two lines of clear demarcation in major Bible prophecy to be fulfilled after Jesus came. One was the official end of the Old Covenant age 70 Ad. The other was the end of the age of the four gentile empires. 1453 AD. Obviously all this is encompassed in the New Covenant age that started at the cross. But this age. The age that was to occur after the age of the four gentile empires has over a hundred chapters of Bible prophecy about it. It’s that prophecy that should be the focus of our attention and faith.

 

[Tra Phull]

What 100 chapters do you speak of?

 

[William Lefranc]

Vague has nothing to do with it - and the only CONCRETE thing I know is that among Christians, there are wildly different eschatologies, and they cannot all be true.

Partial Preterism is wide open to me, it could include Amillennialism or not, it could be classed Futurist in that some things have not occurred yet.

I am sure that I would not even agree with all other partial preterists, and that doesn't matter.

Some things predicted in Olivet Discourse have occurred, I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

Every stone of the Temple was torn down in 70 AD, wailing wall was a Roman fort, does not negate the prophecy.

So Partial Preterism is an eschatology with some things fulfilled already, and some not. If some want to consider that VAGUE - so be it. I see it as a wide open approach that does not seek to have a pat answer to everything.

I lean toward Revelation being written before Jerusalem fell, but Partial Preterism does not fall apart if it was written 95 AD

The Middle East may or may not be integral to the End Times, the 1000 year reign may or may not be literal, the TEMPLE OF GOD that son of perdition sits in may or may not be a physical stone temple; much was written about us being temples, and that was written while stone temple still stood.

Boring. You may or you may not. Tell me what you believe and we go from there.