Predestination v free will compromise?

[visionary]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature. This may already be a thing, I don't know. If it is, I honestly didn't know.

Yes, God wants everyone to be saved.. predestination. But out of free will, few chose the narrow path that gets you there.

 

[Ohj1n37]

So I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

Hi, I saw this on the front page I didn't read the other posts, but just wanted to share this real quick.

I am Presbyterian and had always been taught about predestination my entire life. What I am about to discuss is information I believe I have come to know through reading God's word and prayer.

So first thing is everyone is predestined because God knows everything. Some people think because God knows what will happen that this means we do not get to choose, but this is not true. Just because God knows what you or anybody will choose before you choose it doesn't mean you don't have free will. God simply knows what you will choose before you choose. This is like if you were to know the future does suddenly everybody from the parts of the future you know not have free will? Free will does not require not knowing what someone will choose. Free will requires that someone has the capability to make a decision without being forced to come to that decision.

Now when it comes to salvation, God predestined certain people to be saved by how he designed salvation. God wanted only humble people who choose to love him to be saved. He did this by becoming human and then dying in very humble way to confound the proud and fool those who lust after power.

Here's an example if the previous explanation did not suffice. If God wanted to save only the rich he would have designed salvation so that only those with large sums of money would be saved. If God wanted to save only the famous he would have designed salvation so that only those with a certain amount fame would be saved. If God wanted to save only the talented he would have designed salvation so that only those with so much talent would be saved. The thing is he didn't. He wants those who honestly love him to be saved, those who are humble , those who need a savior.

Paraphrasing from scripture, if there was a man with debt and one with a greater debt and they were both forgiven of their debts, who would love the one who released them of their debts more?

Today many people do not even think they have done any wrong or don't care, so guess how much they care when they are told their debts are forgiven. This is the way God has predestined those who are saved and those who are not. God has designed salvation so that the people who choose to love him and seek him will be the ones that are saved, not those with the most money, fame, talent or what have you. So if this true this means he has also predestined those who choose not to love or seek him to not be saved.

Sometimes talking on forums is fun, but get answers from God himself and reading God's word. If you have questions do not be afraid to ask God. He wants you to ask him. God wants you to talk to him. He wants to have a relationship with you. When I asked he has answered me every time, just sometimes in ways I didn't expect, and sometimes I didn't realize he gave me answer, and sometimes it seemed to take a very long time. But remember God is good and gives wisdom to those who ask.

 

[Neogaia777]

God cannot know everything and free will truly exist, and that is your conundrum...

It is resolved in and with the true Trinity...

God Bless!

 

[Butch5]

okay.

Actually, Romans 9 explains that passage you posted

 

[Neogaia777]

God cannot know everything and free will truly exist, and that is your conundrum...

It is resolved in and with the true Trinity...

God Bless!

Also you have to know what "hell" truly is also... and that those meant for it, were, or never really were meant to be or become truly conscious and/or self-aware, or truly "alive" in the first place ever... temporary programs/people meant for a temporary purpose living a temporary existence, involving those who are not or were never meant to only be only that, etc, like they (those others) are, etc...

These people, if they do experience if but for only a moment, a very fleeting moment of being or becoming truly conscious, or experiencing a very fleeting moment of true "self- awareness", or a moment of "true self-awareness", are like a man looking into a mirror and then walking away instantly forgetting what kind of person they were or are that was revealed or was shown to them in that mirror, etc, and walk away and instantly "forget" and go back to following the ways of the world, and being a part of it's collective temporary consciousness, and to being "only temporary constructs/programs/people" again, and never ever come to a full knowledge or understanding of the truth, and not and never were (or never were meant to be or become) truly "alive" in the first place, etc... They follow the prearranged program for them, belonging to the world, and never get or break free from it ever, and stay that way forever, or are only ever really meant for just here only ever, etc, at all ever, ect...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

God cannot know everything and free will truly exist, and that is your conundrum...

It is resolved in and with the true Trinity...

God Bless!

There is no "compromise"... For God to truly know "everything", there cannot be true free will, ever...

God Bless!

 

[WanderedHome]

If you look at the Scriptures closely, you'll find that when the Bible speaks of Predestination, it's speaking of Israel. It's not talking about them being saved. It's talking about them as a people who came from Abraham. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation. God had predetermined or predestined the nation of Israel in that promise to Abraham.

Just clarifying- Not the nation as ethnos, but as laos tou Theou. The people who are true children of Abraham by faith and not by birth. Now is known as the Church, not a nation-state.

 

[Butch5]

Just clarifying- Not the nation as ethnos, but as laos tou Theou. The people who are true children of Abraham by faith and not by birth. Now is known as the Church, not a nation-state.

The nation of Israel. Israel as a nation was predestined.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So one or two good things is enough. Got it. Is that every day? Or just once?

Huh? I hope not. dude, that's never going to work here

No more answers from me until you answer my quetions. I'll explain why, you choose to try to back me into a corner with that silly line of questioning, yet you stay safe from being backed in yourself by not answering mine.

So please answer mine unless you feel being unfair is the only way to defend yourself here.

Gotta admit, I have a good point.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, Romans 9 explains that passage you posted

Yeah. I’m sure it does for you.

 

[Hammster]

Huh? I hope not. dude, that's never going to work here

No more answers from me until you answer my quetions. I'll explain why, you choose to try to back me into a corner with that silly line of questioning, yet you stay safe from being backed in yourself by not answering mine.

So please answer mine unless you feel being unfair is the only way to defend yourself here.

Gotta admit, I have a good point.

I didn’t see questions to me.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I didn’t see questions to me.

This is the part where I'm often asked to track them down and show them or repeat them, and after enough of that I had to tell them that's not fair. And that I thought they were hoping to skip them (because i know perfectly well they read them if they commented on the post) so it's not fair to now ask me to do the work of finding them. They skip them and when called on it, they need to go find them and not put it on me. Not saying you'll do that, but just in case.

Just use the arrow right of the user names in quotes and if need need be, hit the edit button in the top menu, and do a search for question marks...at least it seems like that might help someone not seeing them, but not sure it's the best way.

 

[JLB777]

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. You can’t just skip past that.

I didn’t skip past anything.

There is no mention of being predestined for salvation in this verse you quoted.

• elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:1-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Sanctified obedient believers inherit eternal life, thus receiving the salvation of their souls.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

JLB

 

[Butch5]

I didn’t skip past anything.

There is no mention of being predestined for salvation in this verse you quoted.

• elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:1-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Sanctified obedient believers inherit eternal life, thus receiving the salvation of their souls.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

JLB

JLB, that verse is poorly translated. It doesn't say elect according to the foreknowledge of God. The word elect is in verse one in the Greek text not verse two.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The word "choice" is the Greek word Eklectos that is usually translated elect. In many English translations the translators have moved word Eklectos from verse to verse 2. Here is the Greek text.

Πέτρος ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας καὶ Βιθυνίας 2 κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρὸς ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος εἰς ὑπακοὴν καὶ ῥαντισμὸν αἵματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη. (1 Pet. 1:1 BGT)

The bolded word Eklectos is the word elect.

 

[Hammster]

There is no mention of being predestined for salvation in this verse you quoted.

There is. You obviously deny it. No point continuing.

 

[Neogaia777]

Also you have to know what "hell" truly is also... and that those meant for it, were, or never really were meant to be or become truly conscious and/or self-aware, or truly "alive" in the first place ever... temporary programs/people meant for a temporary purpose living a temporary existence, involving those who are not or were never meant to only be only that, etc, like they (those others) are, etc...

These people, if they do experience if but for only a moment, a very fleeting moment of being or becoming truly conscious, or experiencing a very fleeting moment of true "self- awareness", or a moment of "true self-awareness", are like a man looking into a mirror and then walking away instantly forgetting what kind of person they were or are that was revealed or was shown to them in that mirror, etc, and walk away and instantly "forget" and go back to following the ways of the world, and being a part of it's collective temporary consciousness, and to being "only temporary constructs/programs/people" again, and never ever come to a full knowledge or understanding of the truth, and not and never were (or never were meant to be or become) truly "alive" in the first place, etc... They follow the prearranged program for them, belonging to the world, and never get or break free from it ever, and stay that way forever, or are only ever really meant for just here only ever, etc, at all ever, ect...

God Bless!

Only those who truly become self-aware and are predestined to remain that way, and not just continually forget, going back to the ways of the world and it's consciousness that is perishing, etc... anyway... only those who truly become self-aware and are predestined to remain that way, ever truly have, or are ever truly faced with an eternal life or death choice decision, but one which the true Father God already knows already yes, but, anyway, and, "the rest" are not... and never were, or really ever did, ever truly have that choice or decision to make... or even ever really ever had the ability even to make that or this choice or decision ever, etc... not ever being predestined by the true Father God with being faced with it or that ever, etc, (due to or contingent upon self-awareness and remaining that way, etc)... but/and "they" (the latter ones) were also predestined (just not for heaven) and all for them was already decided by the true Father God from before the founding or beginning of the world, or this world/reality/existence, "also", etc... His purposes for them are different from the rest of ours, etc... But He predestined, or does or always did predestine, both, etc...

It is really "too bad" that many of you don't truly know the Holy Spirit and who He is, and who He was, and who He is now, etc, after Christ, etc...

Just really too bad and so very sad... Seems that revelation or revealing can only come from the true Father God alone, and by someone who knows Him or that One also, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Free will is a perspective or point of view, and from the point of view from the One who always did always fully know all, there isn't any...

But from "others perspectives", like with possibly other members of the Trinity, and the Angels and such, especially in the past, there is or was...

Whether they still see it that way still "now" or not, I do not know, but they used to see us (and themselves) as having "choice", or having "a choice", or as making "choices", etc...

And like I said, whether they still see it that now still or not, I do not know...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Free will is a perspective or point of view, and from the point of view from the One who always did always fully know all, there isn't any...

But from "others perspectives", like with possibly other members of the Trinity, and the Angels and such, especially in the past, there is or was...

Whether they still see it that way still "now" or not, I do not know, but they used to see us (and themselves) as having "choice", or having "a choice", or as making "choices", etc...

And like I said, whether they still see it that now still or not, I do not know...

God Bless!

This is why we have so much, especially in the OT, where it seems like God the Spirit is almost begging us to choose differently, to choose rightly, but were we ever really capable of that or not, etc...?

That is the question...?

And are we or any of us now capable of that, etc...?

Like I said, that is the question...

The question that probably only the Father God alone fully knows or always knew always, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is why we have so much, especially in the OT, where it seems like God the Spirit is almost begging us to choose differently, to choose rightly, but were we ever really capable of that or not, etc...?

That is the question...?

And are we or any of us now capable of that, etc...?

Like I said, that is the question...

The question that probably only the Father God alone fully knows or always knew always, etc...

God Bless!

I am of the opinion that some few of us are, but all way too many of us are just "not", etc...

But that is just my opinion...

My take, my own point of view, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I am of the opinion that some few of us are, but all way too many of us are just "not", etc...

But that is just my opinion...

My take, my own point of view, etc...

God Bless!

And are we "better than they"...? Not by any means, since such is all only by the true Father God's own predestining and "His own free will" or His own predestining or perspective or point of view, etc...

Some might even say we could possibly be even more cursed, etc...

Just depends, etc...

And depends not upon us, but Him and Him alone...

Does He not have the full and exclusive right to what He wants, and "whatever He wants", with (all of) His own things...?

God Bless!