Nearly 40% of 2019 farm income will come from federal aid and insurance

ThatRobGuy

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Ok, so apparently you understand that these are different circumstances....great.

If I go walking down the street and someone approaches and asks "will you donate to my charity?"

And I say "Sorry, I don't just hand out money to people who don't earn it." and I walk on by...

Then later, my sister asks me for some help paying an unexpected medical bill and I send her some money to help....am I suddenly a hypocrite?

Anyone who has an ounce of common sense should be able to see that my statement to the person who was soliciting charity was meant for those circumstances and not literally every possible circumstance where I might exchange money with someone.

That would be stupid.

I acknowledged that there are different circumstances right from the start...not sure why you're wording your reply in such a way to imply that I didn't.

I think you're just trying to play a semantics game now.

What you decide to do in terms of private charity are 100% up to you and you can choose to contribute or not contribute to them on a case by case basis if you want to.

The same is not true with regards to things funded via taxation, which is what we're talking about in this thread.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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An element you didn't include is climate. Where I'm at, corn and soybeans are pretty much all that will grow. Onions, tomatoes, etc have to be grown in hothouses. And a large portion of it is used in making ethanol, which the govment subsidizes as a clean burning fuel.

Crop limitations are certainly a factor in certain regions.

However, I'd be interested to see just how far stretching of a limitation that is. 50% of all usable farmland is used for corn & soy. I would have to think a sizable portion of that land could be used for better/healthier fruit & veg.

The US had pretty good crop diversity up until the 1980's farm subsidy bill, and that's when we saw the major shift to push for more corn & soy and less of everything else.

Take Indiana for instance, 2/3 of their available farmland is used for corn and soybeans (thanks to subsidies). However, when you look through this list, there are dozens of other much healthier crops that are well-adapted to be grown in that state, but simply aren't (due to the aforementioned issues with subsidies we've been talking about)

Vegetables

Same thing goes for Fruits and Nuts
 
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Ana the Ist

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The same is not true with regards to things funded via taxation, which is what we're talking about in this thread.

Why isn't it true about taxation? Aren't you arguing that we should also be doing things like "funding college students" with our tax money?

How is that not you choosing where you think your tax money should go?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Why isn't it true about taxation? Aren't you arguing that we should also be doing things like "funding college students" with our tax money?

How is that not you choosing where you think your tax money should go?

We don't get to directly pick...

In terms of private charity, if I have $100 in my pocket, I can choose to give it to anyone I'd like for charitable purposes, or only give them part of it, or keep it all to myself.

In terms of our federal government spending, we basically get to pick between 1 of 2 "option packages" every few years. (Both of which contain some things I agree with, and some I disagree with).

While I think funding college would be a better use of our funds than subsidizing corn, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want the "college funding" concept to be as wide open as the democrats (or at least many of them) seem to want it.

My model for that would employ the same concepts of discretion as my model for crop subsidies...which would be a model of specificity and discretion. Much like I'd be okay with limited subsidizing for things like carrots and broccoli, but not not corn & soy, I'd be okay with limited subsidizing for degrees that marketable and have a higher job placement rate, but not art & philosophy degrees, as I don't see much merit in paying $40k for a philosophy degree so that the person can work at starbucks after graduation.
 
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Ana the Ist

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We don't get to directly pick...

Not directly...it's not only your money.

But you do get to vote for legislators and presidents and mayors and the like....and they generally tell you how they'll direct tax funds.

It's not a perfect system....but the point remains the same. One need not support one kind of funding just because they support another. One doesn't have to reject funding something just because they reject funding something completely different.
 
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Moral Orel

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I'm fine with the typical definition that's been posted twice on this thread already.
Ok, let's steal from that Rob guy:
Obviously the real definition is:
315942_d7205b8b4697c4db6eca6edba92f8b73.png
Firemen produce a service, firefighting is controlled by the government, therefore public firefighting is a socialist program. That definition doesn't mention any of the other criteria you were talking about before, are we tossing all of that? I don't see anything in there about some services being excluded from the definition because someone considers them "a public good", for instance.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In terms of our federal government spending, we basically get to pick between 1 of 2 "option packages" every few years. (Both of which contain some things I agree with, and some I disagree with).

While I think funding college would be a better use of our funds than subsidizing corn, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want the "college funding" concept to be as wide open as the democrats (or at least many of them) seem to want it.

My model for that would employ the same concepts of discretion as my model for crop subsidies...which would be a model of specificity and discretion. Much like I'd be okay with limited subsidizing for things like carrots and broccoli, but not not corn & soy, I'd be okay with limited subsidizing for degrees that marketable and have a higher job placement rate, but not art & philosophy degrees, as I don't see much merit in paying $40k for a philosophy degree so that the person can work at starbucks after graduation.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking with me or not. You understand all that corn goes into livestock feed too, right?

So after you destroy the all the major food industries that use corn syrup and the beef industry goes bust (it'll probably take less than a year) and we're all eating broccoli and turnip soup 2 meals a day.....the question is whether or not there's enough protein and calories in this forced diet for me to have the strength to help dig the mass graves?

What do you think Chairman Rob?
 
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Hank77

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Ana the Ist

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Ok, let's steal from that Rob guy:

Firemen produce a service

They perform a service....they don't produce a product. That may seem like a meaningless distinction to you...but it's not to those who came up with the phrase "means of production" during the industrial revolution.

The problem with taking every service like "the military" or "law enforcement" or literally anything the government spends tax money on and calling it "socialism" is that socialism then becomes a meaningless term for "government spending"....and its not.

If these things are socialism....then every government in history is socialist and so is every nation....and they always will be.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It's not a perfect system....but the point remains the same. One need not support one kind of funding just because they support another. One doesn't have to reject funding something just because they reject funding something completely different.

Correct, but if they use "I don't want my money being given to someone else who didn't physically earn it" as justification for their opposition to one, then they're demonstrating a double standard when they claim to support something that fits that same description.

Like I said in an earlier post, if a person just simply said "I don't want my money being given to inner city folks because I feel they're lazy, but I'm okay with it going to farmers because I think they're hardworking Americans", though harsh and somewhat transparent, at least it's not inconsistent.

It'd be like a person saying they opposed subsidizing target because "I don't want my tax money being given to big box stores", but then claiming to be okay with subsidizing walmart. What they should actually be saying is "I love walmart so I'm okay with them getting my money, but I don't like target, so I don't want them to get any of it"
 
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Moral Orel

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They perform a service....they don't produce a product. That may seem like a meaningless distinction to you...but it's not to those who came up with the phrase "means of production" during the industrial revolution.

The problem with taking every service like "the military" or "law enforcement" or literally anything the government spends tax money on and calling it "socialism" is that socialism then becomes a meaningless term for "government spending"....and its not.

If these things are socialism....then every government in history is socialist and so is every nation....and they always will be.
Okay, then there's no such thing as "socialized medicine" because healthcare is a service and not a product?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I honestly can't tell if you're joking with me or not. You understand all that corn goes into livestock feed too, right?

Yes, I mentioned that in an earlier post...I also mentioned that it's not what the livestock should be eating in the first place. Cows should be eating grass.

Forcefeeding corn to cows was a byproduct of the fact that corn was being overproduced and they had to find something to do with it....beef farmers realized that they could fatten up cows quick with it, and saw it as a win-win (without any regard to the fact that corn-fed beef isn't necessarily a good thing for people to be eating anyway)

So after you destroy the all the major food industries that use corn syrup and the beef industry goes bust (it'll probably take less than a year) and we're all eating broccoli and turnip soup 2 meals a day.....the question is whether or not there's enough protein and calories in this forced diet for me to have the strength to help dig the mass graves?

What do you think Chairman Rob?

Corn syrup is over-added to most processed foods and isn't necessary in the amounts that they're adding it (or at all for that matter).

The beef industry wouldn't go bust...cows don't need to eat corn (it's not their natural diet).

The rest of your post is basically a logical fallacy. There's no rational reason to think that if we stopped subsidizing corn, that the rest of the food industry would collapse like a house of cards into some "broccoli & turnip" disaster in a year. That's nonsense.

Factory farmed beef would take a hit...but that's an industry that's destructive in many ways anyway, but has been able to flourish as a byproduct of corn subsidies.

"We need to keep subsidizing this one thing, because other industries that produce harmful products might not be able to keep their mega-profits in tact" isn't good reasoning.

The large processed food corporations have plenty of money, if they insist that corn syrup is crucial to their operation, then can bust out the check book and pay farmers to grow it. They don't need to take our tax money for it so that they can get an artificially low price on their raw materials.
 
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Desk trauma

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Farmers grow what grows best in the area. Central California is great for grapes and almonds so they grow a lot of them there. Other places grow barley and alfalfa because that is what's best suited for those climates. So you can't just say you're going to replace one crop with another that isn't suited for the climate. Yes corn should be weaned off the government teat. But it's not safe to assume that land can be used to grow tomatoes instead.
If the land cannot grow a profitable crop there is no reason for the state to prop it up anymore than there is to buy up the products from a factory when they are no longer in demand.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Correct, but if they use "I don't want my money being given to someone else who didn't physically earn it" as justification for their opposition to one, then they're demonstrating a double standard *snip*

No...they aren't. You already acknowledged there are different circumstances...so it's entirely reasonable to hold different standards. The fact that the money comes from the same place doesn't change that....just like it wouldn't make sense to hold the same standard for charity and helping my sister just because the money comes from my pocket.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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No...they aren't. You already acknowledged there are different circumstances...so it's entirely reasonable to hold different standards. The fact that the money comes from the same place doesn't change that....just like it wouldn't make sense to hold the same standard for charity and helping my sister just because the money comes from my pocket.

Yes, they are, you snipped out the portion of my post that explained why...here, I'll repost it again


Correct, but if they use "I don't want my money being given to someone else who didn't physically earn it" as justification for their opposition to one, then they're demonstrating a double standard when they claim to support something that fits that same description.

Like I said in an earlier post, if a person just simply said "I don't want my money being given to inner city folks because I feel they're lazy, but I'm okay with it going to farmers because I think they're hardworking Americans", though harsh and somewhat transparent, at least it's not inconsistent.

It'd be like a person saying they opposed subsidizing target because "I don't want my tax money being given to big box stores", but then claiming to be okay with subsidizing walmart. What they should actually be saying is "I love walmart so I'm okay with them getting my money, but I don't like target, so I don't want them to get any of it"


If a person wants to have different standards on different topics, then they need to be specific when voicing support/opposition.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes, I mentioned that in an earlier post...I also mentioned that it's not what the livestock should be eating in the first place. Cows should be eating grass.

To my knowledge, most cattle isn't pasture fed for life. I can only imagine the havoc wreaked on the industry if it was.

Forcefeeding corn to cows was a byproduct of the fact that corn was being overproduced and they had to find something to do with it....beef farmers realized that they could fatten up cows quick with it, and saw it as a win-win (without any regard to the fact that corn-fed beef isn't necessarily a good thing for people to be eating anyway)

Thanks for your opinion.

Corn syrup is over-added to most processed foods and isn't necessary in the amounts that they're adding it (or at all for that matter).

Again, thanks for your opinion.

The beef industry wouldn't go bust...cows don't need to eat corn (it's not their natural diet).

I don't see how that matters if most cattle is corn fed now.

The rest of your post is basically a logical fallacy. There's no rational reason to think that if we stopped subsidizing corn, that the rest of the food industry would collapse like a house of cards into some "broccoli & turnip" disaster in a year. That's nonsense.

That's because you don't really understand free markets.

We used to be the biggest automobile producing nation on the planet. Now, not so much.

We can afford to lose an industry like automobiles but we cannot afford to lose agriculture.

I'll try to explain it as simply as I can....let's say we stop propping up corn and soy, we open the market completely. The next year the Chinese market overproduces and drives prices down....or some fungus destroys a part of the corn crop....and 1000 farms go bust.

Maybe 100 of those farms reinvest and try their luck with a different crop....the other 900 sell their land and machinery and it gets turned into condos and parking lots.

This continues for 5 years and the next thing you know, instead of only importing 30% of our fruits and vegetables....we're depending on foreign food sources for 40%.

We may be able to sustain 40%....but at some point, whether it's 50% or 60% or whatever (we actually are at 30% now) we're in catastrophic trouble. All it would take is one major event to put our nation in a serious crisis. It's not like cell phones, or some other factory made widget that we don't need....it's food. I can't eat someone's Art History degree....I can't eat someone's hip replacement.

The only comparable industry that comes to mind is the weapons industry. We cannot afford to become dependent upon foreign sources for things like bullets, guns, and bombs.

I mean seriously, do you know how many wars were fought over food? Seige warfare itself was entirely built around controlling food sources. WW2 was basically built around the pretext of controlling farmland.

I feel like I'm explaining the painfully obvious. It's fun to watch you claim that free markets won't destroy the food industry...but I don't trust your amateur opinion.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Okay, then there's no such thing as "socialized medicine" because healthcare is a service and not a product?

What are you looking for here? You want me to explain all of socialist theory to you as I understand it?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes, they are, you snipped out the portion of my post that explained why...here, I'll repost it again.

No...I didn't miss it...I deleted it because you already agreed they were different circumstances.

Remember when you agreed that giving to charity isn't the same as helping out my sister? Remember the reason why I said I wouldn't give to charity?

Well it's not like my sister earned the money either. You already acknowledged that the reasoning for one doesn't apply to the other because they are different circumstances.
 
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Moral Orel

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What are you looking for here? You want me to explain all of socialist theory to you as I understand it?
A clear and consistent use of socialist is what I'm looking for. Do you have one? First it was things that are good for the public aren't socialist, then it was things that preserve the existence of a nation aren't socialist, then we went back to basics and it became products can be socialist but services cannot.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I acknowledged that there are different circumstances right from the start...not sure why you're wording your reply in such a way to imply that I didn't.

This is you agreeing that the circumstances of giving money to one group can be different from another.

What you decide to do in terms of private charity are 100% up to you and you can choose to contribute or not contribute to them on a case by case basis if you want to.

This is you agreeing that just because I could apply the same reasoning for both circumstances, I don't have to. It doesn't make anyone a hypocrite because they're fundamentally different circumstances.

The same is not true with regards to things funded via taxation, which is what we're talking about in this thread.

This is you arguing that deciding where tax money goes is somehow fundamentally different....though you failed to explain why.
 
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