THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

[jgr]

Breaking promises he never intends to keep and bringing destruction are two characteristics mentioned.

Who in the passage does that?

 

[Contenders Edge]

I'm not going to attempt to second guess your own definition.

So be it.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Who in the passage does that?

The prince that shall come but the prince that shall come does not describe Christ. Christ keeps His promises. The prince that shall come breaks his.

 

[jgr]

So be it.

Good. The one making the claim is responsible for providing the evidence, so we conclude on that note.

 

[jgr]

The prince that shall come but the prince that shall come does not describe Christ. Christ keeps His promises. The prince that shall come breaks his.

Messiah is explicitly identified by name (not only by characteristics or attributes) as a prince in Daniel 9:25, Isaiah 9:6, and Revelation 1:5.

Where in the entirety of Scripture is antichrist explicitly identified by name (not only by characteristics or attributes) as a prince?

The answer: Nowhere.

 

[jgr]

1. The he who makes the covenant with Israel for seven years has to go back to its nearest antecedent( your preacher was close hear), and the nearest antecedent is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary It cannot be Messiah the Prince!

Who is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can you tell me how we will know the exact day, and hour, of Christ's return?
If you are going to claim it is related to Daniel 9:27, then try again.

Do you realize Revelation 3:10 was addressed to the first century church of Sardis, and not to the other churches in the Book of Revelation?

There is a trial that will come upon the whole world. It will be the one described by Christ in John 5:27-30, whose timing in found in Revelation 11:18.
We will see the faithful first century believers from Sardis on that day.

If that is your best proof of the Pre-trib doctrine, you are on very thin ice, which is already cracking from the weight of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Contenders Edge said: ↑
Since we do not know when the events of Daniel 9:27 are going to take place,

They took place in the first century.
Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
.

nolidad said: ↑
Well I finally decided to listen to this preacher you link to! He is even more vague and more allegorizing than you and others here!
But let us ignore the rules of Hebrew and English grammar for a moment and assume that the 70 7's are concurrent with no gap. . Let us read Dan. 9:27 according to your preacher.
"And Jesus shall confirm the covenant with many for 7 years (27 AD -34AD) And in the middle of that 7 years (30AD) Jesus will cause the sacrifice and burnt offering to end. And for the overspreading of detestable things and idols all the way to the wings of the temple he shall spoil and empty the temple.

So what happened in 30 AD to stop the sacrificial system form working- History said it still was!

What happened in 34 AD to fulfill the rest of the promise of Daniel.

BABerean2 said: ↑
The exact same fulfillment is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
For some strange reason you ignored that part of my post, and attempted to make it only about Dr. Varner

nolidad said: ↑
1. The he who makes the covenant with Israel for seven years has to go back to its nearest antecedent( your preacher was close hear), and the nearest antecedent is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary It cannot be Messiah the Prince!

Who is the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the sanctuary?

Could I request that any discussion on Daniel be taken to the appropriate thread.
There are a plethora of them if you do a title search "Daniel".

A few threads I started.............

Daniel 9:26 "people of a prince one coming"

Who is the people and prince symbolizing in Dan 9:26.

What about Daniel 9

How much of Daniel was fulfilled in the 1st century?
Verses I have on another thread..........

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Dan 9:24
.
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Dan 9:25

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
Dan 9:26

Daniel 9:27
and a covenant<2285> he has mastery/strength<1396> to many ones<7227>, one 7,

and half/midst of the 7 he shall cause to cease<7673> sacrifice<2077> and present<4503>,

and on a wing<3671> of abominations<8251> one making desolate<8074> and unto finish<3617>

and one being decided shall be poured forth<5413> on one being desolate<8074>

Daniel 9 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

9:27 2532 και And 1412 δυναμώσει he shall strengthen 1242 διαθήκην covenant 4183 πολλοίς with many 1439.1 εβδομάς [2period of sevens 1520 μία 1one]; 2532 και and 1722 εν in 3588 τω the 2255 ημίσει half 3588 της of the 1439.1 εβδομάδος period of seven 142 αρθήσεται shall be lifted away 2378 θυσία sacrifice 2532 και and 4700.2 σπονδή libation offering, 2532 και and 1909 επί upon 3588 το the 2413 ιερόν temple 946 βδέλυγμα an abomination 3588 των of the 2050 ερημώσεων desolations 1510.8.3 έσται will be; 2532 και and 2193 έως until 3588 της the 4930 συντελείας completion 2540 καιρού of time, 4930 συντέλεια completion 1325 δοθήσεται shall be given 1909 επί unto 3588 την the 2050 ερήμωσιν desolation.

Compare Daniel 9: in other Bible versions
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H1396 גּבר - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon

1396 gabar gaw-bar' a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently:--exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more (strength), strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

1. to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great
a. (Qal)
1. to be strong, mighty
2. to prevail
b. (Piel) to make strong, strengthen
c. (Hiphil)
1. to confirm, give strength
2. to confirm (a covenant)
d. (Hithpael)
1. to show oneself mighty
2. to act proudly (toward God)
Origin: a primitive root
TWOT: 310
Parts of Speech: Verb
TBESH:
גָּבַר
ga.var
H:V
to prevail
1) to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be strong, mighty
1a2) to prevail
1b) (Piel) to make strong, strengthen
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to confirm, give strength
1c2) to confirm (a covenant)
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to show oneself mighty
1d2) to act proudly (toward God)
View how H1396 גּבר is used in the Bible

• King James Version (KJV) Strong's Concordance H1396
• Revised 1833 Webster Version Strong's Concordance H1396
• new revision - Strong's Concordance H1396
• Interlinear Hebrew Old Testament Strong's Concordance H1396

All of Daniel 9 fulfilled in 1st century?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   4 vote(s)
   57.1%
2. No
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%
3. Only partiall
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. I don't know
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%
5. Other
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%

 

[Contenders Edge]

Good. The one making the claim is responsible for providing the evidence, so we conclude on that note.

You are the one who said that you did not wish to second guess my position and I decided to leave it at that. The evidence is in the sources you cited and if you cannot find it in any of them, they can at least be a starting point for you. You just don't want to consult it.

 

[BABerean2]

Christ does not confirm any covenant and then violate it.

There is no "violation" of the covenant found in the verse below.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The text says the sacrifices and oblation stop in the middle of the week.
Why did God rip the temple veil in half at the moment Christ died at Calvary?
The answer is found in Hebrews 10:16-18.
.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Messiah is explicitly identified by name (not only by characteristics or attributes) as a prince in Daniel 9:25, Isaiah 9:6, and Revelation 1:5.

Where in the entirety of Scripture is antichrist explicitly identified by name (not only by characteristics or attributes) as a prince?

The answer: Nowhere.

Daniel 9:26: "The people of the prince that shall come" who comes after Messiah.
As for where the Anti-Christ is identified by name, read the epistles of John.

 

[Contenders Edge]

There is no "violation" of the covenant found in the verse below.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The text says the sacrifices and oblation stop in the middle of the week.
Why did God rip the temple veil in half at the moment Christ died at Calvary?
The answer is found in Hebrews 10:16-18.
.

The sacrifices continued on until 70 A.D. and no covenant was ever confirmed for seven years with anyone and in order for a covenant to be confirmed, it has to be a pre-existing covenant.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Could I request that any discussion on Daniel be taken to the appropriate thread.
There are a plethora of them if you do a title search "Daniel".

A few threads I started.............

Daniel 9:26 "people of a prince one coming"

What about Daniel 9




All of Daniel 9 fulfilled in 1st century?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   4 vote(s)
   57.1%
2. No
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%
3. Only partiall
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. I don't know
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%
5. Other
   1 vote(s)
   14.3%

And the list of thread links grows longer. I got the memo. Whether the others have or not remains to be seen and if they haven't perhaps the question that should be asked of them is why Daniel 9 bears relevance to this thread.

 

[jgr]

Daniel 9:26: "The people of the prince that shall come" who comes after Messiah.
As for where the Anti-Christ is identified by name, read the epistles of John.

The antichrists in John's epistles are not identified as princes.

 

[jgr]

You are the one who said that you did not wish to second guess my position and I decided to leave it at that. The evidence is in the sources you cited and if you cannot find it in any of them, they can at least be a starting point for you. You just don't want to consult it.

For some reason, you're afraid to provide the evidence which you claim exists, and which it is your responsibility to provide.

Why is that?

Given your refusal to provide said evidence, the only logical conclusion is that no evidence exists which supports your claim.

 

[BABerean2]

The sacrifices continued on until 70 A.D. and no covenant was ever confirmed for seven years with anyone and in order for a covenant to be confirmed, it has to be a pre-existing covenant.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews, for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

It is the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, and found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

Based on what Paul said in Galatians 3:16, it was the fulfillment of the covenant made to Abraham. It was God who passed through the pieces of the sacrificial animals, while Abraham slept.
It was God who took on human form, and died at Calvary.
Your Bible says the same thing.


Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(The earthly ministry of Christ to the Jews lasted about 3 1/2 years.)


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(Paul said the Gospel was taken first to the Jews. When did that happen?)


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

The antichrists in John's epistles are not identified as princes.

I was not just talking about antichrists but the Anti-Christ who is identified as a ruler and to which the title of prince would apply.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people the Jews, for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

It is the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and spoken by Christ at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, and found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

Based on what Paul said in Galatians 3:16, it was the fulfillment of the covenant made to Abraham. It was God who passed through the pieces of the sacrificial animals, while Abraham slept.
It was God who took on human form, and died at Calvary.
Your Bible says the same thing.


Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
(The earthly ministry of Christ to the Jews lasted about 3 1/2 years.)


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(Paul said the Gospel was taken first to the Jews. When did that happen?)


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

.

The Gospel was taken to the Jews for far longer than just seven years. Even when Paul was sent to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, he would always customarily take it to the Jews first. Peter's ministry was primarily to the Jews and Peter preached the Gospel for longer than seven years.

 

[Contenders Edge]

For some reason, you're afraid to provide the evidence which you claim exists, and which it is your responsibility to provide.

Why is that?

Given your refusal to provide said evidence, the only logical conclusion is that no evidence exists which supports your claim.

If there is no evidence, you should be able to refute me using those sources. You have not done so.

 

[BABerean2]

The Gospel was taken to the Jews for far longer than just seven years. Even when Paul was sent to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, he would always customarily take it to the Jews first. Peter's ministry was primarily to the Jews and Peter preached the Gospel for longer than seven years.

You are ignoring the fact that the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry mainly to the Gentiles. Since that time the Gospel has been taken to all races of people.


Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

You are ignoring the fact that the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry mainly to the Gentiles. Since that time the Gospel has been taken to all races of people.


Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

.

You are ignoring the fact that as the Gospel was being taken to the Jews, it was also being taken to the Gentiles as is frequently pointed out in the book of Acts before Paul began his ministry.