THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

[nolidad]

Paul also practiced it.

Rom 9:3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
Gal 1:13
For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.
Gal 1:14
And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Judaism of the Law/Flesh/Moses became the different Gospel from the Gospel based on Faith/Grace/Jesus

Gal 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
==============================
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us and ye there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions!

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
==========================

Revelation 2:
9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich);
and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Revelation 3:9
“Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—
indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Yes once Jesus birthed the Church at Pentecost- the Mosaic covenant was null and void! But that doesn't make it Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of all Harlots and Abominations on the earth! Judaism is not the oldest religious system on earth and cannot be the Mother of all HArlots!

Also your fanciful allegorical opinion of Lazarus and the Rich man is even more "strange" than even teh JW's opinion on it!

Still waiting for you to show us the historic fulfillment of the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, the beast and his mark, and when the three angels flew !

 

[Contenders Edge]

Wouldn't the 1st resurrection be of the "2 witnesses" in Revelation 11:11?
It appears to be a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:10/Luke 2:34 concerning the whole House of Israel [both Judah and Israel]?

The same could be asked of Lazarus, Eutychus, the saints that were said to have been resurrected when Christ Himself was resurrected, and others. (Mt. 27:52-53) Are there resurrections a part of the first resurrection? And their resurrections were not just spiritual, they were literal.

As for Ezekiel 37:10, we know that resurrection was not a literal one but a symbolic one representing the reviving, re-establishment, and the raising up of the nation of Israel.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Not in comparison to the Pre-Trib doctrine...

.

The faults of the post-trib rapture are these: It establishes a date for the return of Christ when He says that we cannot know when He is returning and it subjects the people of God to pass through the hour of testing from which Jesus said He would keep us; (Rev. 3:10) The pre-trib rapture does not conflict with either of these.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Post Trib - Pre Wrath is the correct view.......
Btw, what is the difference between tribulation and wrath?

How a mid-trib or post trib adherent would answer that, I do not know. Perhaps if one happens to come across this thread and post, they are more than welcome to attempt an answer, but from a pre-trib perspective the tribulation (depending in what context the term is used) and wrath are the same because the forth coming tribulation is the time during which God will test and pour out His judgments and wrath upon the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

It establishes a date for the return of Christ when He says that we cannot know when He is returning and it subjects the people of God to pass through the hour of testing from which Jesus said He would keep us; (Rev. 3:10) The pre-trib rapture does not conflict with either of these.

Can you tell me how we will know the exact day, and hour, of Christ's return?
If you are going to claim it is related to Daniel 9:27, then try again.

Do you realize Revelation 3:10 was addressed to the first century church of Sardis, and not to the other churches in the Book of Revelation?

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is a trial that will come upon the whole world. It will be the one described by Christ in John 5:27-30, whose timing in found in Revelation 11:18.
We will see the faithful first century believers from Sardis on that day.

If that is your best proof of the Pre-trib doctrine, you are on very thin ice, which is already cracking from the weight of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Satan can be bound with a real chain! We may not understand the spiritual realm and the bindings in the spirit realm, but I don't have a problem with him being bound by some "thing".

Based on the scripture below, the only chain that could bind Satan would be one made of the blood of Christ.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.


Mar_3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (We serve a victorious Savior.)


Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, the book cannot be in chronological order.

The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writing of Peter was involved in the writing of the Book of Revelation. They must agree, because the Spirit stands outside of time, and space.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found below, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation, unless you can show us an 8th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Can you tell me how we will know the exact day, and hour, of Christ's return?
If you are going to claim it is related to Daniel 9:27, then try again.

Do you realize Revelation 3:10 was addressed to the first century church of Sardis, and not to the other churches in the Book of Revelation?

Since we do not know when the events of Daniel 9:27 are going to take place, we most definitely will never know when the return of our Lord will be and do you realize these other passages in the book of Revelation were addressed to the other Churches and not to Philadelphia? (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 26-28, 3:5, 10, 20-21) Revelation 3:10 was addressed to Philadelphia and not to Sardis.

Nevertheless according to your statements, when drawn to their final conclusion, only the members of the Church of Ephesus get to eat of the tree of life. Only the members of the Church of Smyrna will be spared the second death. Only the members of Pergamos will get to eat of the hidden manna and be given a new name. Only the members of Thyatira will be given rule over the nations and possess the morning star. Only the members of Sardis get to have their names written in the Book of Life and their names confessed before the angels. Only the church of Philadelphia, besides being spared the forthcoming tribulation, will be members of the Temple of God and have the name of God written on them. And finally, only the members of Laodicea will be able to have fellowship with Christ.

Everyone else outside of these churches don't even have eternal life; two of the very churches addressed don't even have eternal life. As such would be according to your statements brought to their conclusion if that which was written to these churches do not apply to us as well.

 

[BABerean2]

Since we do not know when the events of Daniel 9:27 are going to take place,

They took place in the first century.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

 

[nolidad]

Based on the scripture below, the only chain that could bind Satan would be one made of the blood of Christ.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.


Mar_3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (We serve a victorious Savior.)


Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, the book cannot be in chronological order.

The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writing of Peter was involved in the writing of the Book of Revelation. They must agree, because the Spirit stands outside of time, and space.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found below, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation, unless you can show us an 8th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

Based on the scripture below, the only chain that could bind Satan would be one made of the blood of Christ.

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.


Mar_3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (We serve a victorious Savior.)


Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, the book cannot be in chronological order.

The same Holy Spirit that inspired the writing of Peter was involved in the writing of the Book of Revelation. They must agree, because the Spirit stands outside of time, and space.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found below, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation, unless you can show us an 8th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

Well as to Satan being bound. We just don't know what the spirit realm holds in all its details now do we? We know spirits can break human chains, but spiritual binds? Whether they are a spiritual chain or th eblood or the Word- we will find out!

You are in error about Jesus returning in Rev. 16.

Revelation 16:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Verse 15 is a simple statement of fact not a declaration that Jesus has returned. He is coming as a thief. But the fact that He declares this does not it happens at that moment. Unless you believe when Paul said that Jesus comes back as a thief- He meant immediately as well!

Givenm teh fact that watch and keep are the present active participle- they are better translated in English as those who keep watching and are keeping their garments.

It also takes time for the Antichrist to gather the Worlds armies to the Valley of Jezreel at teh foot of tal-megiddo. Not only do the kings of the east have to march but Europe and the Americas have to send their forces. This all takes time!


As for Rev. 11:15? Once again it is a simple statement of fact without regard to time. It is 2nd Aorist deponent indicative. Given the details surrounding Jesus actually taking control of His kingdom found later in Rev., this is a simple declaration that Jesus is now King, Satan is deposed and the begfinning of the end has commenced!

As for Rev. 11:18? Once again it is in the Aorist and is concerned with the action and not the time! Given the detailed description of the great white throne and what ha[ppens there and with the return of Jesus and what happens there prior to His establishing the Millenial Kingdom which also is a time for the judgment of the dead and the rewarding of the OT saints (the NT saints may have already received their rewards in heaven, for by Rev. 19 the church has her fine linens.) Once again this is just an announcemkent that all these things have commenced and have not been completed!


We also need to remember that the seals and trumpets and bowls all have very very different actions and scenarios and results so one cannot be a rehash of the prior ones.

 

[nolidad]

They took place in the first century.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Well I finally decided to listen to this preacher you link to! He is even more vague and more allegorizing than you and others here!

But let us ignore the rules of Hebrew and English grammar for a moment and assume that the 70 7's are concurrent with no gap. . Let us read Dan. 9:27 according to your preacher.

"And Jesus shall confirm the covenant with many for 7 years (27 AD -34AD) And in the middle of that 7 years (30AD) Jesus will cause the sacrifice and burnt offering to end. And for the overspreading of detestable things and idols all the way to the wings of the temple he shall spoil and empty the temple.

So what happened in 30 AD to stop the sacrificial system form working- History said it still was!

What happened in 34 AD to fulfill the rest of the promise of Daniel.

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Also your preacher has another problem!


Daniel 9:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Your preacher says Daniels 70th week was ad27 through AD34 But yet Daniel says after 483 years (AD27 according to your preacher) Jesus had to be cut off! So Jesus died on the cross in 27AD and in 30 AD??? Whom should I believe God or your preacher?

Also he violates grammar by making the covenant maker Jesus- He is right in saying it has to refer to an antecedent, but then ignores it has to refer to the nearest antecedent which is the Prince of the people that shall come. YOu rpreacher then assumes that the Prince who destroys Jewrusalem is Jesus!

At least I know now where you and so many other preterists or partial preterists get your hate for disepnsationalists. This guy pretty much calls those who believe REvelation or the majority of it is yet to come servants of Satan and blasphemers against the blood of Jesus!

 

[BABerean2]

Well as to Satan being bound. We just don't know what the spirit realm holds in all its details now do we? We know spirits can break human chains, but spiritual binds? Whether they are a spiritual chain or th eblood or the Word- we will find out!

You are in error about Jesus returning in Rev. 16.

Revelation 16:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Verse 15 is a simple statement of fact not a declaration that Jesus has returned. He is coming as a thief. But the fact that He declares this does not it happens at that moment. Unless you believe when Paul said that Jesus comes back as a thief- He meant immediately as well!

Givenm teh fact that watch and keep are the present active participle- they are better translated in English as those who keep watching and are keeping their garments.

It also takes time for the Antichrist to gather the Worlds armies to the Valley of Jezreel at teh foot of tal-megiddo. Not only do the kings of the east have to march but Europe and the Americas have to send their forces. This all takes time!


As for Rev. 11:15? Once again it is a simple statement of fact without regard to time. It is 2nd Aorist deponent indicative. Given the details surrounding Jesus actually taking control of His kingdom found later in Rev., this is a simple declaration that Jesus is now King, Satan is deposed and the begfinning of the end has commenced!

As for Rev. 11:18? Once again it is in the Aorist and is concerned with the action and not the time! Given the detailed description of the great white throne and what ha[ppens there and with the return of Jesus and what happens there prior to His establishing the Millenial Kingdom which also is a time for the judgment of the dead and the rewarding of the OT saints (the NT saints may have already received their rewards in heaven, for by Rev. 19 the church has her fine linens.) Once again this is just an announcemkent that all these things have commenced and have not been completed!


We also need to remember that the seals and trumpets and bowls all have very very different actions and scenarios and results so one cannot be a rehash of the prior ones.

The only way you can make the above work is by ignoring the rest of Revelation chapter 16.

In verse 18 we find the greatest earthquake in history.

In verse 19 the cities of the nations fall.

In verse 20 all of the islands are moved and the mountains are destroyed.



Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
Rev 16:18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
Rev 16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.


The Second Coming of Christ is found at the end of Revelation 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse. At the end of the chapter we have those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of His wrath is come.

The Second Coming is found in Revelation 11:15-18, with the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead. We also find reward for the Saints, and destruction for others.

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth, and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.

It is found above in chapter 16, and in chapter 19.

It is also found at the end of chapter 20, when the fire comes, and the judgment of the dead.

Attempting to force the Book of Revelation into chronological order produces the tremendous confusion often seen on this forum.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Well I finally decided to listen to this preacher you link to! He is even more vague and more allegorizing than you and others here!

But let us ignore the rules of Hebrew and English grammar for a moment and assume that the 70 7's are concurrent with no gap. . Let us read Dan. 9:27 according to your preacher.

"And Jesus shall confirm the covenant with many for 7 years (27 AD -34AD) And in the middle of that 7 years (30AD) Jesus will cause the sacrifice and burnt offering to end. And for the overspreading of detestable things and idols all the way to the wings of the temple he shall spoil and empty the temple.

So what happened in 30 AD to stop the sacrificial system form working- History said it still was!

What happened in 34 AD to fulfill the rest of the promise of Daniel.

Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Also your preacher has another problem!


Daniel 9:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Your preacher says Daniels 70th week was ad27 through AD34 But yet Daniel says after 483 years (AD27 according to your preacher) Jesus had to be cut off! So Jesus died on the cross in 27AD and in 30 AD??? Whom should I believe God or your preacher?

Also he violates grammar by making the covenant maker Jesus- He is right in saying it has to refer to an antecedent, but then ignores it has to refer to the nearest antecedent which is the Prince of the people that shall come. YOu rpreacher then assumes that the Prince who destroys Jewrusalem is Jesus!

At least I know now where you and so many other preterists or partial preterists get your hate for disepnsationalists. This guy pretty much calls those who believe REvelation or the majority of it is yet to come servants of Satan and blasphemers against the blood of Jesus!

The exact same fulfillment is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
For some strange reason you ignored that part of my post, and attempted to make it only about Dr. Varner.


Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

......................................................................

Was the summary of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled below by Christ during the first century?


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

There is no evidence that any persecutions were due to disagreement that the true Church is the sole exclusive One People of God.

Persecutions by the apostate papacy were due to refusal to submit to its counterfeit authority and dogmas.

The identity of the true Church as the sole exclusive One People of God was never an issue, as Luther's 95 theses reveal.

It became an issue when the Catholic Church became a Church under a Papal Caesar when the Papacy made itself by all intents practically equal with God (i.e. doctrine of infallibility) and the sole interpreter of the Holy Scriptures.

And that was an issue that Luther and other reformers did have with the Catholic Church. You still have not told me where the Puritans, Anabaptists, Pilgrims, and Waldenses stood.

Your brethren disagree.

https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj19c.pdf
The Roots of Replacement Theology – Israel My Glory
https://faithalone.org/magazine/y2013/Israel-and-the-Church-Fathers.pdf
REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY - Jerusalem Institute of Justice
The Evil of Replacement Theology

Did you even take the time to even read each of these sources before claiming that they support your assertions?

If you had, you would have noticed a number of things:


1. Replacement Theology/Supersessionism did not immediately come on the scene in the second century. It finds its established beginnings in Justin Martyr and was later adopted by others of the ante-Nicene era. Iren

2. Even though Irenaeus believed that the Jews had been disinherited from the promises they once had due to their rejection of Christ, he only believed that in the temporal sense, as did many of those in his generation. He never went to the length of declaring that the Church had replaced the nation of Israel as a people.

Beginning with Martyr many believed that the Church only replaced Israel in the temporal sense and not in the permanent sense; this doctrine being mainstream until the fourth and fifth centuries when the doctrine of Replacement Theology, as it is commonly understood today, became the mainstream thought in the Church and for which Origen, and to a much greater extent, Augustine were credited.

Before Origen and Augustine, many believed that the Jews would not always remain in unbelief but would eventually come to repentance, even having all things promised to them restored to them.
One thing for certain is that Replacement Theology never had its roots in the Apostolic generation. Those who insist that it does, do not know what Replacement Theology is and need a lesson in history.

3. The eschatology of the the second century Church had much more in common with Dispensationalism than it ever did with Preterism.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Jesus did specifically state that " a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem". Not sure how a 3rd physical temple in the earthly city of Jerusalem would not falsify this claim, as it would be polar opposite of Jesus' words.

Did a standing Temple falsify the words of Christ before it was destroyed? If not, then why would another forthcoming Temple do so?

What NT scripture confirms that the rebuilding of a 3rd physical earthly temple would fulfill scripture?
If anything, we have NT scripture that confirms the body of Christ is the temple being built for the dwelling place of God.

Read Revelation chapter 11. John is told to take measurements of a Temple which appears to be associated with events that did not take place in his day.

As scripture testifies, God spoke to the prophets through visions, dreams, parables and riddles
Ezekiel was a prophet of Israel and God spoke to him in visions in regards to Ezekiel 40-47:

Ezekiel 40:2 In visions of God he brought me to the land of Israel, and set me down on a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city to the south

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the temple and earthly city of Jerusalem in vision given to Ezekiel in 40-47 are representative of the New Jerusalem (revelation 21-22).

There is no contextual evidence that the visions of Ezekiel were symbolic since symbolic visions always have an interpretation, nor can it be the New Jerusalem since there is no physical Temple in the New Jerusalem. Christ and the Father are that Temple.

You've just described the Body of Christ.

What I described is not the body of Christ in whom Christ presently dwells by way of the Holy Spirit, but a Temple where Christ will place His throne when He returns.

 

[Contenders Edge]

They took place in the first century.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

The following is from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

If you are referring to the commentary notes, they are not a part of inspired scripture and therefore are subject to error in regards to the interpretation of scripture. If a commentary on scripture is not consistent with the text of the passage it is commenting on, then it is simple. The commentary is wrong in its explanation and application of that passage.

And though you may hold commentary notes as being infallible, I do not, regardless if those commentary notes come from a Preterist, Partial Preterist, or Dispensationalist.

Daniel 9:27 does not speak of Christ who is faithful in keeping His promises but is rather speaking of one to come after His first coming who will no intention in honoring his promises.

 

[BABerean2]

Daniel 9:27 does not speak of Christ who is faithful in keeping His promises but is rather speaking of one to come after His first coming who will no intention in honoring his promises.

Can you show us a singular antecedent for an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Can you show us a singular antecedent for an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

.

The context of the chapter speaks for itself and one thing for certain is that Christ is not going to confirm a covenant and then violate it. It is just a matter of whether or not you accept the context of the chapter as presented and the announcement of Gabriel is not even relevant to the discussion because his announcement is not the subject of the debate.

 

[jgr]

It became an issue when the Catholic Church became a Church under a Papal Caesar when the Papacy made itself by all intents practically equal with God (i.e. doctrine of infallibility) and the sole interpreter of the Holy Scriptures.

And that was an issue that Luther and other reformers did have with the Catholic Church. You still have not told me where the Puritans, Anabaptists, Pilgrims, and Waldenses stood.






Did you even take the time to even read each of these sources before claiming that they support your assertions?

If you had, you would have noticed a number of things:


1. Replacement Theology/Supersessionism did not immediately come on the scene in the second century. It finds its established beginnings in Justin Martyr and was later adopted by others of the ante-Nicene era. Iren

2. Even though Irenaeus believed that the Jews had been disinherited from the promises they once had due to their rejection of Christ, he only believed that in the temporal sense, as did many of those in his generation. He never went to the length of declaring that the Church had replaced the nation of Israel as a people.

Beginning with Martyr many believed that the Church only replaced Israel in the temporal sense and not in the permanent sense; this doctrine being mainstream until the fourth and fifth centuries when the doctrine of Replacement Theology, as it is commonly understood today, became the mainstream thought in the Church and for which Origen, and to a much greater extent, Augustine were credited.

Before Origen and Augustine, many believed that the Jews would not always remain in unbelief but would eventually come to repentance, even having all things promised to them restored to them.
One thing for certain is that Replacement Theology never had its roots in the Apostolic generation. Those who insist that it does, do not know what Replacement Theology is and need a lesson in history.

3. The eschatology of the the second century Church had much more in common with Dispensationalism than it ever did with Preterism.

Every one of the linked articles deplores what is claimed to be replacement theology, and every one explicitly mentions Irenaeus as being associated with it in some way.

But the bottom line of all of this, is this:

There is not a single quote which can be found from any recognized historical defender of the true faith between the 2nd and 18th centuries which espouses a dispensational-style "Two Peoples of God" dogma.

The unanimous belief was that the NT Church is the sole exclusive One People of God.

 

[claninja]

Did a standing Temple falsify the words of Christ before it was destroyed? If not, then why would another forthcoming Temple do so?

Of course a 1st century temple standing in Jerusalem didn't falsify the words of Christ. Jesus stated "a time is coming" in regards to future worship not located in Jerusalem. We have to look closely at what Jesus said and didn't say. What was "is coming" AND "now here" was worshiping in spirit and truth. What was "is coming", with no mention of "now here", was worshiping not in a set location, as required by the law, like the temple in Jerusalem.


John 4:21-23 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Jewish believers continued to worship in the Temple after the cross in the 1st century.

Acts 4:1-2 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead

Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 21:20, 26 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law. Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

After 70 ad, no one worshiped in the temple, as there was no temple, nor has there been for 2,000 years. Thus the time had fully come where worshipers were not worshiping in the temple in jerusalem. Now if another temple is built in Jerusalem and it becomes a central worship spot again in modern times for believers, it would falsify the words of Christ in John 4:21.

Read Revelation chapter 11. John is told to take measurements of a Temple which appears to be associated with events that did not take place in his day.

Revelation 11 doesn't mention the rebuilding a temple. Revelation 11 only mentions that a temple is measured and the court outside of the temple was given to the nations and the city was trampled by the nations for 42 months.

You believe this is future, I believe already past, as Jerusalem was trampled for 42 months (66ad to 70ad) leading up to the temple destruction.

Since we disagree on the interpretation of a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book due to eschatological biases, it would be more fruitful to use scripture from the epistles or gospels that clearly and specifically mention a future rebuilding of a temple.

There is no contextual evidence that the visions of Ezekiel were symbolic since symbolic visions always have an interpretation, nor can it be the New Jerusalem since there is no physical Temple in the New Jerusalem. Christ and the Father are that Temple.

As clearly stated by God, He spoke to the prophets of Israel, unlike moses, in dreams, visions, parables, and riddles.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

So we should rely on the NT to interpret the visions/dreams/parables/riddles of the OT.

According to NT scripture, the heavenly Jerusalem is representative of the New covenant.

Galatians 4:24-26 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering

Both the New Jerusalem and the body of Christ are the bride of Christ (ephesians 5:31-32, revelation 21:9). Both the New Jerusalem and body of Christ are built on the foundation of the apostles. ( ephesians, 2:20 revelation 21:14 ) Both the New Jerusalem and body of Christ are where God dwell (ephesians 2:22, 2 Corinthians 6:16, revelation 21:3). Thus the New Jerusalem = the body of Christ under the new covenant.

Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem are where God dwells (Ezekiel 43:7, Revelation 21:3). Both the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have a river flowing from the temple (Ezekiel 47:1 revelation 22:1). Both the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have fruit growing near the river and leaves for healing the nations (Ezekiel 47:12, Revelation 22:2). Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem have 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them (Ezekiel 48:30-35, Revelation 22:12). Thus the Ezekiel temple/Jerusalem = the New Jerusalem.

We should always rely on NT scripture as a foundation for our understanding of OT scripture.

What I described is not the body of Christ in whom Christ presently dwells by way of the Holy Spirit, but a Temple where Christ will place His throne when He returns.

What NT scripture teaches that Christ will sit on a throne in an earthly temple building?

 

[jgr]

The context of the chapter speaks for itself and one thing for certain is that Christ is not going to confirm a covenant and then violate it. It is just a matter of whether or not you accept the context of the chapter as presented and the announcement of Gabriel is not even relevant to the discussion because his announcement is not the subject of the debate.

The context we see is Messiah and His complete perfect accomplishments, which glorify Him.

What context do you see?