Feminism

[OldWiseGuy]

I know too many women who are really good at the work they do. Its absurd to think shut off from that work for life.

Plenty of time for career after the kids have been properly raised.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There's intense pushback from many Christians to understanding anything in the Bible as culturally contingent.

That is true, but as I'm sure you've read in the Bible, God sometimes has His own pushback that He performs even against His own people.....

... it can happen. And it should happen, from time to time.

 

[Larniavc]

all these examples are illustrations of what I've already explained. these women didn't generate the same revenue and ratings as their male counterparts and therefore made less.

that's not gender inequality, that's show business.

A quick look at the viewing figures of QI shows no such view figure drop since the change over.

 

[Larniavc]

Regardless, it's the best foundational social order, and badly needed as we see society falling apart.

No it isn’t. Society changing to something that you personally don’t like is not the same as falling apart.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No it isn’t. Society changing to something that you personally don’t like is not the same as falling apart.

You don't believe that society is falling apart? If the present chaos is all you've known then of course everything is fine. My experience goes back to better times.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

A quick look at the viewing figures of QI shows no such view figure drop since the change over.

And if she continues to keep the ratings up she'll be able to negotiate for better pay.

 

[JackRT]

You don't believe that society is falling apart? If the present chaos is all you've known then of course everything is fine. My experience goes back to better times.

Everything looks better when you are looking back. It seems to be a law of human nature.

Socrates (died 399 BC) wrote --- Our youth now love luxury, they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders, and love to chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

[bèlla]

Vulnerability and dependence are frowned upon by the feminist movement in general, and these are all things that you need to embrace in the religious context. We are not in control, male or female, and we have this overwhelming modern conviction that we should be.

I think both struggle equally with being vulnerable and transparent. I think many are comfortable sharing struggles involving other people. But being naked and acknowledging nitty gritty truths about themselves is another matter.

That said, probably unsurprisingly, I do not care for the idea of submitting to male authority, at least in a unilateral sense. I think the sort of mutual yielding that is encouraged in 1 Corinthians is preferable to what we see in Ephesians. The problem inherent with telling husbands to perform the role of Christ in a marriage is that they are not Christ. They are human, and sinful, and it is hard to see how putting that sort of burden on them could be anything but a recipe for disaster.

But that shouldn’t bring either grief if they understand themselves and the necessity for grace. Just because a bar is high doesn’t mean we refuse to leap. A holy standard is better than none.

All of this comes back to the wisdom of our choice in companion. If you’ve selected someone who fears the Lord with a teachable spirit you’ll fare better than the one with the know-it-all who refuses to listen. Our submission to God is a foreshadowing of how we’ll respond to relational challenges. If flesh wins with Him it will always win with others.

The way his mother Monica is quoted there as talking about submission to one's husband is explicitly linked to what would now be considered domestic abuse, and that's something that really needs to be discussed.

Harmful behaviors should be discussed and rooted out. But they shouldn’t be replaced with the same in a different guise. Domestic abuse is wrong. But so is a destructive tongue. A woman may not raise her fists but our words can be cutting and very inflammatory. Both should treat the other with respect.

They're not always all that balanced, haha. Living on the fault line of the culture wars can make me reactionary in unpredictable ways.

But you’re honest and I respect that.

Have you ever read Sarah Coakley? She's an Anglican theologian in the liberal Anglo-Catholic camp who specifically talks about contemplative submission. I am fond of the sort of "old-meets-new" mixture of Patristic thought and modern theory in general, and she's a good representative of that in the context of feminist theory.

Her name sounds familiar but I haven’t read her work. I contemplated studying Patristics when I explored seminary schools. There’s a part of me that values old traditions but I also appreciate modern scholarship.

What I'm intrigued by is the intersection between spirituality and sexuality, and the role that female sexuality in particular plays in a lot of the religious metaphors out there. You see it right there in the Song of Solomon, and I don't think is all that rare in mystical literature either.

No it isn’t. I see the convergence between the two. I’m comfortable with my sexuality because it came from Him. But the subject is difficult for many in the church. There’s a lot of repression, confusion, and misinformation. Some view it as a means of conception and others don’t believe it should be enjoyed. We have a long way to go on that subject.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Everything looks better when you are looking back. It seems to be a law of human nature.

Socrates (died 399 BC) wrote --- Our youth now love luxury, they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders, and love to chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

It's a cyclical thing down through history. If such behavior in Socrates day had continued society would have destroyed itself centuries ago. In fact such behavior (as we are seeing now in some places) is indicative of a society on the edge. The social order of the poor has largely broken down.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

To be fair, as they are news readers on the BBC they are not allowed to comment on the news (only to report it) their individual levels of ability (beyond a certain level of competence) are irrelevant.

Coupled with that viewing figures for the news rarely vary.

And all these people have been working there for the same amount of time all doing the same work?

 

[bèlla]

On the radio they were talking about a study of women's role in the early church. You see, the devil's subtle. He doesn't just come out, he seduces. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.' (James 1:14). And when the focus has been turned from Christ - bang! gotcha!

That’s true. Thank you for sharing the verse. I have raised the question of Christian involvement in feminism and its connection to dissatisfaction with the woman’s role in the church.

As a believer, I know a secular agenda that was not born of God will have issues. Spiritually speaking, we can propose its aim is to liberate Eve by undermining Adam and leaving him to bear the brunt of both curses.

Feminism didn’t free men from their responsibilities. They’re still expected to provide. It places her in the drivers seat with full autonomy and no requirement for subjection except on her terms. And the positive attributes which once applied to men are being affixed to women. The reverse is occurring with them.

I would liken this to the hermaphrodite spirit. Its androgynous. Also known as the Baphomet, Goat of Mendes, etc.

 

[Larniavc]

You don't believe that society is falling apart? If the present chaos is all you've known then of course everything is fine. My experience goes back to better times.

Better times for whom? I grew up in the 70s where memories of polio, iron lungs and a world war were a thing.

Just what is worse now than in the previous century?

 

[Larniavc]

And if she continues to keep the ratings up she'll be able to negotiate for better pay.

Yet she is unable to until the facts of the guys pay is somehow brought to light.

Thus the inequity.

 

[Larniavc]

And all these people have been working there for the same amount of time all doing the same work?

There appears to be no pattern in seniority.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Yet she is unable to until the facts of the guys pay is somehow brought to light.

Thus the inequity.

You can negotiate for higher pay regardless once your contract is up and you seek a new contract.

And it's not an inequity. Unproven commodities never start off at top pay. You have to prove yourself and then you'll have leverage to demand more money.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Better times for whom? I grew up in the 70s where memories of polio, iron lungs and a world war were a thing.

Just what is worse now than in the previous century?

I grew up in the middle of both. I had polio, fortunately with no paralysis.

The subject is the social order. Disease and war didn't break down the social order back then as did Viet Nam and AIDS, in fact it unified us more.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

There appears to be no pattern in seniority.

How long have the lower paid people been there in comparison to those with top pay?

 

[Larniavc]

You can negotiate for higher pay regardless once your contract is up and you seek a new contract.

And it's not an inequity. Unproven commodities never start off at top pay. You have to prove yourself and then you'll have leverage to demand more money.

On a level playing field I would agree.

I’ve provided evidence consistent with the idea that it’s not.

I shall leave it there.

 

[Larniavc]

The subject is the social order. Disease and war didn't break down the social order back then, in fact it unified us more.

So then how is the change of the social order from the one you describe to the current one a bad thing?

 

[Larniavc]

How long have the lower paid people been there in comparison to those with top pay?

I don’t have that information.