Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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keras

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A typical Preterist might more likely agree with you on that statement, but there is no contextual evidence that Ezekiel was prophesying against people when he was commanded to prophesy against the forests and fields of the south. As mentioned before, judgment does not just come in the form of direct destruction to man, but has and can come in the form of land destruction.

It must also be noted that the land of Israel is never called the "south". And once more, there is relation in subject matter between Ezekiel 20:47 who foretold of fire and Luke 23:31 in which our Lord did not specifically mention judgment by fire in that particular passage, but was merely stating that there would greater acts of evil to take place in the dry leaf than what was witnessed taking place in the green leaf.

The context of Luke 23:31 clearly states that in comparison to the season of the dry leaf, the season of the green leaf was a time of relative peace. The season of the dry leaf would be a time of evil such as would not be witnessed in the season of the green leaf.
You fail in the context dept again. Ezekiel 21:1-7 goes on from Ezekiel 20:45-48 to say the Lord will draw His sword against everyone; wicked and righteous alike, all will be terrified as they see their fate approaching.
The fire that the Lord will send, Amos 2:4-5, will burn up man and beast, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:14-18.....He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

This prophecy refers to the forthcoming Sixth Seal devastation to all the holy Land area and the dramatic change to all the world, as we lose our modern infrastructure.
It is relevant to this thread topic, as then the holy Land will be restored to its rightful owners, Isaiah 65:9, every faithful Christian person, who will live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 38:11 sees us there, as the Lord shows us His power by destroying our attackers.
 
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BABerean2

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And at the present, the stage is already being set for the day in which the events of Revelation chapter 11 will meet their fulfillment turning the city that was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah to a repentant city as the scriptures go further to tell of events that will cause the people of the city to be filled with fear and give glory to God.

Help us find your claim above in the scripture below.

1Pe_5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

............................................................................

Do a search on the word "Jerusalem" in the Book of Revelation and see what you find.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

.
 
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jgr

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As I said, that would depend upon what is meant by the demolition of the world: The earth itself or this present world.

It would not depend upon anything, because demolition is preplanned physical destruction.

Demolition of the world would include demolition of the the earth.

Demolition of the earth would include demolition of the world.

Demolition of either would include demolition of dispensational malinterpretation.
 
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I'm talking about the law as in the 613 commands of Moses, not the 1st 5 books of the Bible. The old covenant was Israel's agreement to follow those 613 commands in order to receive earthly blessings from God 's agreement (Deuteronomy 28:1-14).


But those 613 laws are contained in the first five books of the Bible; four out of the five being where we find most of them.


But Israel could not keep their end of the agreement as we read throughout the OT, thus they faced the curses of the law. And so God spoke of a future covenant, not like the old covenant, that would one day supersede the old covenant and make it obsolete


They also faced restoration to upon repentance as well; the blessings and their homeland were never truly lost to them forever, but only withheld until they sincerely began seeking their Maker. But just because the Old Covenant is replaced with the new, that does not mean the blessings and promises pertaining to them specifically were canceled out with the Old Covenant when they can still receive them under a new and better Covenant provided that they enter into the New Covenant.


When Christ fulfilled the law and instituted the new covenant through his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension, many parts of the 613 commandments were changed (priest hood - Hebrews 7; sacrifices and temple worship - Hebrews 10; feasts, Sabbaths, new moons, food, drink - colossians 2, temple services, circumcision, etc...). This led to the righteous standards of the law being fulfilled in us (romans 8:4) and what was left was the freedom to love God and love our neighbor as ourself and this is what we are to uphold (romans 13:10, romans 3:31), not for salvation but because of our love for Jesus.


"Many" does not mean "all" but other than that, there is no disagreement as the rest of what you have stated is confirmed by scripture.



the 613 commandments do not equal the old covenant. The term covenant means agreement. The old covenant was a 2 party agreement for Israel to obey the 613 commands in order for God to bestow blessings upon them.


That might be taken to mean that the 613 commandments were either inferior or superior to the covenant. That which was inferior died with the Old Covenant and that which was superior outlasted the Old Covenant.


The law of moses was changed and the promises of the old covenant were superseded by better promises.


Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them. (Mt. 5:17) Change could be perceived as canceling out what was already established law unless we understand under what sense the law was changed. If you are referring to change regarding the following that you previously mentioned:


" many parts of the 613 commandments were changed (priest hood - Hebrews 7; sacrifices and temple worship - Hebrews 10; feasts, Sabbaths, new moons, food, drink - colossians 2, temple services, circumcision, etc...)"



then I would agree with you. But if the law does not equal the covenant of which they are a part, then neither do the promises associated with it, which means the promises can outlast the covenant if they are superior to it, and if they are superior to one covenant, they can be carried over into another covenant.

The scriptures have made clear that the Old Covenant animal sacrifices done for sin atonement are no longer necessary as they have been superseded by an infinitely superior sacrifice. The priesthood is no longer confined to the tribe of Levi because we are all priests in Christ. We are no longer required to rest on a certain day of the week since not all people are able to rest on the one designated day of rest that the Jews observe, nor are we bound to dietary and cleanliness laws (though your health might profit from observing them) and we are not required to observe new moons and certain holidays although we could all use a holiday every now and then.

The circumcision of the flesh is of no advantage but it is the circumcision of the heart that is required and it has been the circumcision of the heart that has always pleased God under both the Old and New Covenants. The nations of the world are not mandated to adopt all of the Mosaic civil laws though God's civic system always works best.

But promises are never canceled out. They are fulfilled. Prophecies, a great deal of which center around the nation and people of Israel, are never nullified. It may be possible for fulfillments to be delayed, but they eventually come to pass and while much has come to pass, not all things, including those things pertaining to Israel, have come to pass and yet they must come to pass in order for the faithfulness and Word of God to be upheld.



So where is land restoration clearly and explicitly mentioned in the NT as part of the new covenant?
Romans 11:12,15, Revelation 7:1-9 don't mention the land restoration or the land of Israel. "implying" is not the same as it actually being in scripture...
Implies = interpretation, as it doesn't explicitly and clearly mention land restoration in romans 11:12.Thus your implication is debatable interpretation.
Your inability to provide a verse from Romans 11 that explicitly and clearly (not by debatable implication) mentions land restoration already proves my argument for me.


Even if there is no explicit mention of land restoration in the New Testament, that still does not give anyone grounds to say that "land restoration" has been lost to the people of Israel. There is no evidence to indicate that the promise and foretelling of land restoration and sovereign status died with the Old Covenant.

Among the things listed that have been canceled with the Old Covenant, "land restoration" is not listed among them. The claim that the blessings and promises pertaining to the nation of Israel have been lost to them is based upon an assumption which is every bit as debatable as you claim my assertion of "land restoration" being indicated by certain New Testament passages and because your declaration of "land restoration" no longer being effect is based on an assumption, your argument is not proven and is further refuted by the present existence of the Jewish state of Israel.

Paul said in Romans 11:12 that if the diminishing of them be the riches of the world, "how much more their fulness?" If we are to understand what Paul means by their fullness, we would have to examine all scriptures pertaining to what would be the evidence of that fullness and that requires consulting the Old Testament The establishment of the Jews in their homeland and their prosperity has always served as evidence of their fullness and if God brings to pass even these things pertaining to Israel, we can be ever more certain that all things pertaining to us who are in Christ shall also come to pass.

(Continued on next post)


 
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Part II



No land restoration is mentioned in Revelation 11. Revelation 11 mentions the holy city being trampled by the Gentiles for 42 months. As revelation is a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book, we should use scripture to interpret scripture. Using Luke, we can see that the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentiles refers to 1st century Jerusalem.


The holy city and the land of Israel had been under Gentile jurisdiction until 1948 and in 1967, Israel had taken full control of Jerusalem from the Arabs. That is far longer than the 42 months the Gentiles are foretold to trample on Jerusalem. There is historically no way that the Gospel of Luke and Revelation 11 are talking about the same event.

In order for the 42 months of Gentile control to take place, the Jews must presently have control over Jerusalem, which they do.


No land restoration is mentioned in revelation 14. Only the winepress being trodden down outside the "city".


With the blood clearly belonging to the people outside of the city rather than inside the city.



You create contradictions in your own explanation. On one hand you agree that we would have no idea the house of Israel in hosea 1 refers to the gentiles unless Paul told us, which he does in romans 9:23-26. Then on the other hand you state Paul never associates the house of Israel with the gentiles. 2 polar opposite and contradicting statements.


And yet it is you who has stated that prophets speak in riddles and symbolic visions; the full picture of which we do not get until the fulfillment thereof. There is no contradiction in rendering scripture according to its given context and the context of Romans 9:23-26 gives no evidence that Paul is calling the people of the ten northern tribes Gentiles. He is simply telling us that God was calling not only Israel back to Himself but is also calling the Gentiles to Him as well. That is what the context of Romans 9:23-26 is telling us about Hosea 1:10.


religion and culture didn't stop disobedient Ephraim from mixing with nations prior to the Assyrian exile.


I was not talking about what was prior to the Assyrian exile but afterward.


So why didn't the remnant that received Christ in the 1st century keep the land?


The same thing could be asked concerning the few godly people who were left throughout Israel during the seventy year captivity carried out by Babylon.


Assuming your interpretation of a highly symbolic book is correct.


There is no reason to believe that the 144,000 are symbolic.


This rebuttal is very ironic, considering you believe that land restoration is "implied" but not explicitly or clearly mentioned.
To answer your question: to be tested.


But not to be punished and that is the difference. There is a reason why neither Jesus or any of the Apostles reference the wandering as a picture or a shadow of Christ being tested in the wilderness. Whenever the wandering of the Israelites in the wilderness is looked back upon, it is cited as an example of what not to be and as a warning to not put God to the test like the people of Israel did.

You are also attempting to draw an equivalency where there is none. I at least have presented scriptural evidence from both the Old and New Testament for "land restoration" being implied which you have rejected and won't even consider. So be it. Yet on the other hand, you claim the promises and prophecies of land restoration was cancelled and lost to the Jews forever without any scriptural evidence to back it up. You have nothing more than an assumption.

You have also made the claim that the wanderings of the Israelites in the wilderness were a foreshadow of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness when the Apostles cite their wanderings as a warning to us and an example of what not to do.


You appear to believe that because I believe the conditional promises of the old covenant were superseded by the better promises of the new covenant, then I believe God is not faithful in fulfilling his promises, so you asked me to provide a verse that God is not faithful in fulfilling promises. This is a strawman argument, as I don't believe that God is not faithful to fulfill his promises.


Understand that I am not saying that those who are Preterist or adhere to Preterist leanings question the faithfulness of God, but you need to be made aware that there are ramifications to the doctrines and beliefs that we hold to in regards to how we view God, the inerrancy of scripture, and ultimately the Gospel and which in turn affect the course of our very lives.

God has declared that He does not change. (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8) He has declared His standards of holiness and righteousness from Genesis to Revelation and they are final. They are not going to be changed or made void. The standard by which He judges the world is the same today as it was when the world began. But we can also be sure that His love and mercy will never fail as well and that His grace will never cease.

When man sinned, God's plan to redeem us was the same when sin entered into the world as when Christ came to redeem us through His death on the cross an His resurrection. His nature and attributes today are the same as they have always been. On any given subject that you read about in the Bible, from beginning to end, there is an unfailing consistency.

And because God is unchanging, He is also faithful in keeping His promises and fulfilling all that He has said. (Heb. 10:26)

If God has declared that He will not make a full end of Israel, even if every other nation ceases to exist, (Jer. 30:11) they will continue to abide as a nation and people.

If God has declared that Israel is to exist as long as He maintains control over all of creation,
(Jer. 31:35-37, 33:20-26) then they have, as a people and nation, granted something that no other people or nation has ever been given. Eternal existence.

If God has declared a time that Israel would be re-established as a nation and never to be removed from their homeland again, (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) then we can expect that they will never be uprooted from their land.


This is why Paul said that God was not going to cast Israel off (Rom. 11:5)
This is why he said that if their diminishing, blindness, and being cast away could be used to draw other nations unto God, how much more so when the nation of Israel is reconciled to God and fully restored. (Rom. 11:12, 15)
This is why he said that if they did not continue in unbelief, they could be grafted back into the tree from which they were broken off. (Rom. 11:23-24)
This is why he said that we are not exalt ourselves against the people or nation of Israel and think that we are some how better or more favored then they are or that God has cast them off forever. (Rom. 11:18-22, 25)
This is why God said that all of Israel would be saved (Rom. 11:26) though only a remnant of the nation would be remaining when they finally receive Christ. (Rom. 9:27)
This is why they were still counted for the seed. (Rom. 9:8)
This is why he still called them "beloved for the fathers' sakes" despite their enmity towards the Gospel. (Rom. 11:28)
This is why he said they still possessed the "gifts and calling of God" in spite of their unrepentance. (Rom. 11:29)


If Paul had no basis in declaring that God would not cast away Israel and that all of Israel would be saved and be restored to the full, he would have counted them forever cast out of God's sight.
If it were not for these following passages, (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26, Ezek. chapter 37 and Am. 9:15) I would lack a basis for stating that Romans chapter 11 implies land restoration to still be in effect. If Israel did not have such a central role in the book of Revelation, no one could ever say that they still have a significant role in history that is yet to be played out.

If God is faithful in keeping the least of His promises and fulfilling the least of all prophecies, we can have confidence in the greater.
 
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It would not depend upon anything, because demolition is preplanned physical destruction.

Demolition of the world would include demolition of the the earth.

Demolition of the earth would include demolition of the world.

Demolition of either would include demolition of dispensational malinterpretation.


That would be the case if the source you cited was strictly defined as demolition but because it does not, it does not discredit Dispensationalism nor does it help the case for Preterism.
 
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Help us find your claim above in the scripture below.

1Pe_5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev_18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev_18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Rev_18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Rev_18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Rev_18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

............................................................................

Do a search on the word "Jerusalem" in the Book of Revelation and see what you find.


Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

.


My claim is supported by scripture that you have ignored: Revelation 11:8-13, verses 11 through 13 in particular. That the fear of God entered into the people signals a turning point in their attitude towards God and the Gospel.
 
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jgr

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That would be the case if the source you cited was strictly defined as demolition but because it does not, it does not discredit Dispensationalism nor does it help the case for Preterism.

What else is it defined as in the excerpt I cited?
 
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BABerean2

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My claim is supported by scripture that you have ignored: Revelation 11:8-13, verses 11 through 13 in particular. That the fear of God entered into the people signals a turning point in their attitude towards God and the Gospel.

Does the word "remnant" mean the whole nation in the passage below?

The passage also mentions nothing about their conversion.
Therefore, they could have been believers before this event occurs.



Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That Jerusalem is called figuratively Sodom and Egypt at the time the events of Revelation chapter 11 cannot be denied and is in reference to the spiritual and moral state of the city in that day but which of course will also reflect that of the entire world at that time. But Jerusalem does not remain "Sodom" and "Egypt" for long as the chapter also reveals.
For the Jews' of today sake, please take off your zionist dispensationalist futurist blinders.....we have heard that same song and dance ad nauseum on this forum.......

Jer 23:14
Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.
Eze 16:46
“Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters.
Eze 16:48
As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done.
Eze 16:49
“Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
============================
Mat 10:15
“Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
Mat 11:23
“And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[fn] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24
“But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”
Mar 6:11

“And whoever[fn] will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them.[fn] Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”[#5522 used in Revelation 18:19]
Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust<coun <5522> upon their heads and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying "Woe! Woe! the City, the Great, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness!
that in one hour She was desolated.
Luk 10:12
“But[fn] I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.
Luk 17:29
“but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
===================

Rom 9:29
And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the LORD of Sabaoth[fn] had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
[fn]
2Pe 2:6
and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
Jde 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[fn] Lord was crucified.
 
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claninja

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Your claim that Romans 11:12 does not imply land restoration is just as subjective of an interpretation on your part as you have said my claim of land restoration by implication to be, yet you have not been able to prove my claim be just that. Every New Testament scripture that I have cited as implication of land restoration, you have rejected and dismissed as baseless interpretation despite providing evidence from scripture to support my claim.

We know what life from the dead means for the individual person who receives Jesus as their Savior and Lord, but what about for an entire nation like Israel? What evidence would we expect to accompany a nation brought back from the dead, if not a re-establishment as an independent nation in their own homeland? What evidence can we expect to accompany Israel's fullness upon their acceptance of Christ if not restored blessings by which the rest of the world would benefit and bring praise and glory to God?

Objectively, land restoration is not found in romans 11:12. If we actually look at the verse, it doesn't mention anything about the land.

Romans 11:12 But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

The only way for you to claim that it is about land restoration as to what is "implied" in romans 11:12 is to interpret it, and this is subjective based on your eschatological bias.

As scripture tells us being born again in Christ is life from the dead, not land restoration.

If land restoration was evidence of acceptance of Christ, then why Isn't modern day Israel a Christian majority?

Peter's audience, as is indicated by his salutation, was a Gentile audience because the people to whom he was writing were called strangers. The people of Israel are never called strangers. Like Israel, they are a chosen people. But unlike Israel whose priesthood was confined to the tribe of Levi, everyone who is a part of the Church is a priest. The Church is called a holy nation, but unlike Israel with territory and borders defined, the Church is a nation within all existing nations.

This completely ignores exodus 19:6, which is applied to Israel and peter's audience. You argument does not surmount this.

What Paul revealed was that the cited passage from Hosea was an invitation to the Gentiles to turn to the Lord and away from their wickedness, but he never called the Northern Kingdom Gentiles and neither does Hosea, even when they were intermarrying with Gentiles. Despite their mixing, the ten northern tribes still retained their distinctiveness as a people.

Paul states Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 are fulfilled with the gentiles being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy, would you agree?

Romans 9:23-26 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”I

Who is the grammatical historical subject of hosea 1:10 and 2:23?

Hosea 1:8-10 After she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, Gomer conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi,d for you are not My people, and I am not your God.e
Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God

How much more so when Israel returns to Him (Rom. 11:12)

Life from the dead, which happens to all that come to Christ.

romans 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.

Ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses.

But we do not know what inheritance in the land they will be allotted. We just know they will be given an inheritance as the people of Israel will be. We do know what the allotted portions will be for each of the twelve tribes.

Whatever tribe the foreigner lives in, that is where they will inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:23 In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

Circumcision was associated with Abrahamic Covenant made by God as a reward for Abraham's faith and obedience. But it was not, in and of itself, the covenant. Circumcision was established as an outward sign of entering into that covenant.

I agree that circumcision was a seal of his righteousness by faith.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised

But it was also a covenant

Genesis 17:10 This is My covenant with you and your descendants after you, which you are to keep: Every male among you must be circumcised.

Then how is it that Mary has a cousin (Lk. 1:36) who is a descendant of Aaron? (Lk. 1:5) That is not possible unless both lines had intermarried at some point in their history which means it appears that there is a serious problem; a contradiction between the writer of Hebrews and the Gospel of Luke that needs to be addressed.

No one is denying that Jesus descended through the line of Judah. No one is disputing that a priest had never arisen out of the line of Judah before, but how are Mary's family relations with the tribe of Levi explained? An analysis of this and the seventh chapter of Hebrews would help to explain a number of things:

I have no disagreement that tribal intermingling occurred or that it is possible that Jesus had DNA from the tribe of levi. But we should look at how one could be a high priest according to the law.

According to the law, it is by patriarchal descent.
Leviticus 16:32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments

Thus, if one's father was a high priest, then the son could be a high priest. Matriarchal descent did not count. If one had a mother from the line of aaron, but no father from the line of aaron, then they could not be a high priest.

We have Jesus' genealolgy, which has no patriarch from the line of aaron. Thus, according to the law, Jesus could not be a high priest. Thus the law was changed (Hebrews 7), so that Jesus could be our high priest.

And so, the aaron priesthood is not forever.



What does the book of Revelation say about the sword that will be in the mouth of Christ?

It is to strike down the nations. Now will you do the courtesy of answering the question I asked? Is the sword in Jesus mouth a literal sword?

We are both saying that Christ will be that descendant who will forever reign on the throne of David. We are both referring to the resurrected Christ which makes your above statement self contradictory.

The answer is the resurrection. David foreseeing that God would place a descendant on his throne spoke about the resurrection. Thus, it is fulfilled.

My information comes from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in which only "Sperma" is found. "Spermati" is not found although both "Sperma" and "Spermati" are attached to the same Greek lettering. How can we possibly determine which word is being used? The contextual evidence of Galatians 3:16 points to the use of the word "Sperma" instead of "Spermati"

But what is important is that Paul did make clear what Seed he was referring to in that chapter and verse and that it was not lost in translation.

The contextual evidence?, you must not be looking at the actual verse in greek

Strong's is a concordance, correct? Does the concordance contain the actual greek verse of galatians 3:16?

here is the link to the actual verse in greek, which contains spermati (singular form) and NOT sperma.

Galatians 3:16 Greek Text Analysis

here is the actual verse in greek, as we can see, it is spermati and not sperma.

τῷ δὲ Ἀβραὰμ ἐρρέθησαν αἱ ἐπαγγελίαι καὶ τῷ σπέρματι αὐτοῦ. οὐ λέγει Καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν, ὡς ἐπὶ πολλῶν, ἀλλ’ ὡς ἐφ’ ἑνός Καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου, ὅς ἐστιν Χριστός.

σπέρματι - spermati (singular)

σπέρμα - sperma (root word)

In a figurative sense.

I agree, the prophets received visions/dreams. Thus John is the fulfillment of that part of the vision.

Then we cannot declare a prophecy yet fulfilled, but I believe without a doubt that it will happen as it was written. We may not know how it will happen, we just know it will.

I believe it is "being" fulfilled as it was being fulfilled in the 1st century. A part of Israel was hardened which lead to the crucifixion, and because of the crucifixion, salvation went to the nations. One needs to realize that the phrase "fullness of the nations" is from the OT, specifically genesis 48:19

Romans 11:15 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:d a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the nations has come in

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused. “I know, my son, I know!” he said. “He too shall become a people, and he too shall be great; nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a fullness of nations.”

Thus all Israel is saved by the gentiles (of whom some descended from Erphaim) being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy. This is an ongoing process.


The New Covenant is foretold by Jeremiah, but he does not say anything about the great commission although that is a theme that we periodically find throughout the Old Testament. It is not unique to the New Testament. It is just that in the New Testament, more emphasis is placed on it because the focus of the New Testament is upon the world in general whereas in the Old Testament, Israel is a central focus, yet in the book of Revelation, Israel regains more of a central role than they had throughout much of the rest of the New Testament.

Does Jeremiah prophesy of Israel being sown, not to be destroyed, but to grow around the time of the new covenant?
 
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You fail in the context dept again. Ezekiel 21:1-7 goes on from Ezekiel 20:45-48 to say the Lord will draw His sword against everyone; wicked and righteous alike, all will be terrified as they see their fate approaching.
The fire that the Lord will send, Amos 2:4-5, will burn up man and beast, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:14-18.....He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

This prophecy refers to the forthcoming Sixth Seal devastation to all the holy Land area and the dramatic change to all the world, as we lose our modern infrastructure.
It is relevant to this thread topic, as then the holy Land will be restored to its rightful owners, Isaiah 65:9, every faithful Christian person, who will live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 38:11 sees us there, as the Lord shows us His power by destroying our attackers.

Ezekiel chapter 20 until verses 47-48 are concerning the people of Israel. Verses 47-48 is concerning the "south" with which Israel is never associated. Ezekiel chapter 21 is specifically about Jerusalem; that entire chapter fulfilled long ago. As was Amos 2:4-5 when Solomon's Temple and the palaces of the leadership were burnt by the Babylonians (2 Ki.25:9, 2 Chr. 36:19) and the house of every man called great (2 Ki. 25:9) and the first chapter of Zephaniah was also fulfilled b the Babylonians as indicated by 2 Kings 25:22-26 and 2 Chronicles 36:22, and Hosea 4:3 says nothing about anything being burnt up, just that the inhabitant of the land, both man and beast, are in misery.

The sixth seal devastation does not devastate just the Holy land but the entire world and is a series of different judgments and cataclysms that are to take place upon the earth and ultimately, as pointed out in Zechariah 13:9 and Romans 9:27, the nation of Israel will be comprised of only the Jews who have finally surrendered themselves to the Lord and it will be they who inherit the land with Christ ruling over them and the entire world.

We will not for sure know what inheritance each and everyone of us in Christ will receive until He returns and gives us our rewards. But we will in that day.
 
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What else is it defined as in the excerpt I cited?


Let's take a look of the source you cited and all its applications:


"συντέλεια τοῦ αἰ. τούτ., the end, or rather consummation, of the age preceding Christ's return, with which will be connected the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, the demolition of this world and its restoration to a more excellent condition"


1. It can mean the end of this present age of the entire world and not just that of a nation or a people; this age in which sin, evil, every kind of hardship, suffering, pain, grief, and sorrow associated therewith, death, destruction, and decay abound throughout the earth.

2. When it speaks of demolition, it is not speaking of demolition in the sense of annihilating the earth but rather a demolition done for the purpose of restoring this world to, as it states, "to a more excellent condition."


The book of Revelation tells us what this demolition will entail, but the book of Revelation for the most part and the Millennial Reign are subjects that are not relevant to this thread topic but which I am more than happy to address in threads more directly related to them.
 
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We will not for sure know what inheritance each and everyone of us in Christ will receive until He returns and gives us our rewards. But we will in that day.
Gotta get rid of that stony heart..........

Ezekiel 36:26
“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 17:10
I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Revelation 2:23]

2 Corinthians 3:3
clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God,
not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Hebrew 8:10

That this the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> which I shall be Covenanting/diaqhsomai <1303> (5695) to the House of Israel after the days, those, is saying Lord.
Giving laws of Me into the Minds of them and upon Hearts of them I shall be engraving them.
And I shall be to them into God and they shall be to Me into a People. [JEREMIAH 31:33]



Revelation 2:23
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I AM the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts

and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]

45336-full_free-animated-heart-cliparts-download-free-clip-art-free-clip-art.gif
 
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For the Jews' of today sake, please take off your zionist dispensationalist futurist blinders.....we have heard that same song and dance ad nauseum on this forum.......


Whereabouts on this forum have you heard this song and dance besides this thread? On its upcoming but not yet existing sequel?
 
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Gotta get rid of that stony heart..........


What is so hard hearted about what I said? That is a fact: We do not know everything each and everyone of us is going to receive as a reward until the day we stand before our Lord. We only know in part, but not in full.
 
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LittleLambofJesus said:
Gotta get rid of that stony heart..........
What is so hard hearted about what I said? That is a fact: We do not know everything each and everyone of us is going to receive as a reward until the day we stand before our Lord. We only know in part, but not in full.
I was generalizing......:groupray:
 
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Does the word "remnant" mean the whole nation in the passage below?

The passage also mentions nothing about their conversion.
Therefore, they could have been believers before this event occurs.

.


Do they all die in the earthquake? When the fear of God enters into a people and causes them to give glory to Him, is that not evidence of a change of heart and at least a precursor to a saving faith?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Do they all die in the earthquake? When the fear of God enters into a people and causes them to give glory to Him, is that not evidence of a change of heart and at least a precursor to a saving faith?
There were a few earthquakes happening before the final demolition of the great City of Jerusalem in 70ad as shown in Revelation 18 and 19
Read Josephus sometime

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

Matthew 24:
7 “For shall be being roused/raised<1453> nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And there will be famines, [*pestilences], and quakings in various places.

Mark 13:
8 For shall being roused/raised<1453> nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And shall be being quakings various places, and there shall be being famines and disturbances<5016>.
These beginning of sorrows/travails<5604>.”

Luk 21:11

And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
=========================

Matthew 27:
51 and behold! the veil of the Sanctuary<3485> was rent in two from top unto bottom. And the land did quake<4579>, and the rocks were rent.
54 And the centurion, and those with him watching Jesus, having seen the earthquake<4578>, and the things that were done, were exceedingly afraid, saying, `Truly this One was Son of God.'

Matthew 28:2
And behold! a great earthquake<4578> became; for a Messenger of Lord descended out of heaven, and approaching, rolls away the stone from the door and sat on it.

Acts 16:26
Yet suddenly! a great earthquake<4578> occurred, so that to be shaken<4531> the foundations<2310> of the prison. Yet instanatly all the doors and all of the bindings were loosed.

Hebrews 12:26
Whose voice the land shakes<4531> then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking<4579> not only the Land<1093> but also the Heaven. [Haggai 2:6]

Revelation 16:18
and became lightnings and thunders and voices/sounds and a great earthquake<4578> became, such-as not became since the men became upon the land, such proportion an earthquake<4578> thus great. [Haggai 2:6/Ezekiel 38:19]

Matthew 24, Josephus and the Preterist Apocalypse – February 5, 2016 - Sacramental Life


Natural Disasters

After this, St. Luke wrote that Jesus tells His Apostles “There will be powerful earthquakes, famines, and plagues from place to place;” (Lk. 21:11) Similarly, the Book of Revelation records, “A loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” Then there were lightning flashes, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake.” (Rev. 16:17-18)

Josephus confirms massive storms and earthquakes so large that they interpreted them as portending imminent disaster. Josephus writes, “..for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.” (Bk.4.4.5) The Book of Revelation also speaks about a plague of “large hailstones.” It says, “and huge hailstones, each weighing about one talent (or, a hundred pounds), dropped from heaven on people, until they cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.” (Rev.16:21) Josephus offers a curiously matching description in his eyewitness account. He says, “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, ‘The Son Cometh:’ so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow.” (Bk.5.6.3)

Famine and Pestilence

The miseries were piled one upon another as the Jews were trapped behind the walls of the city, as the Roman soldiers encamped outside. For one thing, their food supply was running out. In fact, at one point their supply of corn, a major staple, was destroyed. (Bk.5.10.2) The robbers and the zealots had risen up against their fellow Jews, stealing their food, and leaving them to die. Josephus describes that the encampment around the city and the siege led to a famine so bad “that it obliged them to chew everything, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some;” (Bk.6.3.4) The famine was so terrible that, as Josephus bitterly reports, some turned to cannibalism. He tells the story of one desperate woman who ends up killing, cooking and eating her own baby. He reports the men who witnessed this horrible act, along with all of Jerusalem, “trembled.” Josephus states as a matter of fact that, “So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die; and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not live long enough either to hear or see such miseries.” (Bk.6.3.4) The living envied the dead! Similarly, disease and pestilence spread through the city as it was held under siege. Josephus says, “And indeed the multitude of carcasses that lay in heaps one upon another, was a horrible sight, and produced a pestilential stench..” (Bk.6.1.1)
 
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