Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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jgr

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That depends on whether the end of the world means which could mean: The world as we know it to be or the destruction of earth itself. The end of the world as we know it does not necessarily mean that the earth itself will be destroyed though scripture makes it clear that the earth itself will pass away as well and a new one will be created in its place.

What does "demolition" mean?
 
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Contenders Edge

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Because Revelation chapter 20 is full of symbolic language.


No contextual evidence that Revelation 20 is symbolic


Do you think Satan is really a giant flying lizard?


What was Satan in the garden of Eden?


Do you think Satan can be bound by a real chain, like one from the hardware store?


If the scripture says he is bound by a chain, he is going to be bound by chain and one that can hold him.


The 1,000 years of Revelation chapter 20 is symbolic of the Church Age.


The Church age has lasted longer than a thousand years and therefore the thousand year reign cannot be symbolic and is a time yet to come.


How do we know this?
In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 the Apostle Paul describes the fire coming at the Second Coming of Christ.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20, instead of at the beginning.


What Paul is describing is not the destruction of the earth itself but the destruction of the earth itself but the wicked who are on the earth.
 
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Contenders Edge

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Does the judgment of the nations occur at the Second Coming of Christ, and how many mortals are left alive at the end of the passage?


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


.


Whoever is left alive when Christ returns again. The scripture does not give a number, but there will be mortals left alive on the earth which is why He must return because if He does not return, all mortals-both righteous and wicked-will perish and God will not allow the righteous to perish alongside the wicked.
 
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BABerean2

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Whoever is left alive when Christ returns again. The scripture does not give a number, but there will be mortals left alive on the earth which is why He must return because if He does not return, all mortals-both righteous and wicked-will perish and God will not allow the righteous to perish alongside the wicked.

You did not find your story above in the words of Christ found in Matthew 25:31-46.

It came from you.

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, there will be no second chances at His Second Coming.


.
 
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Danoh

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When did I say that a man's salvation is changed by what another man does? And aren't nations made of men? If all men are commanded to repent, would this not include nations which consist of men?

You're attempting to reason from within your own reason, in your reply above.

As a result, you missed the opportunity to stick to, reason from, and point out things like the following:

The land promise continued is obvious in Acts 3, which is sister to what the Lord said about what He'd been referring to regarding His wheat and tares parable in Matthew 13.

You'll note that poster ignorantly quoted Acts 3 out of its full context, resulting in his own rather than in Acts 3's context and meaning.

Likewise his quote of Acts 13 out of its context, which actually represents the Dispensational change that began after Israel's continued rejection of the Spirit's offer of a pardon...

The NATION Israel is being addressed prior to the end of Acts 7.

Seriously, you are wasting your time with these people - God's faithfulness is not in question.

By, the way, CE, I hold a Mid-Acts Dispensational view (Body began in Acts 9:6; c.f. Rom. 9:22; 1 Tim. 1:16).

As 2 Tim. 2:15-18's obvious reference to a timeline then makes even further obvious - things that differ in Scripture are not the same.

And you are attempting to reason with people who hold to a one-size fits all, hodge podge of Scripture.

Good luck with that...

Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

:)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Contenders Edge said:
It does not say the end of the earth, so the end of the world must mean this present world as we know it or the end of this present age as confirmed in the Greek which in the case of Matthew 13 uses the word "Aion" meaning "age" which can also mean "this present age" or this present world system.
From the Greek:

συντέλεια τοῦ αἰ. τούτ., the end, or rather consummation, of the age preceding Christ's return, with which will be connected the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, the demolition of this world and its restoration to a more excellent condition (cf. 4 Esdr. 7:43 []), Matthew 13:39f, 49; Matthew 24:3; Matthew 28:20;
Contenders Edge said:
The source you cited does not necessarily mean the end of this earth, but rather the end of this present age or the present state of this world. In that sense, Christ can return and reign a thousand years before this earth finally passes away to make way for a new heavens and a new earth which will not pass away.
What does "demolition" mean?
The demolition and leveling of 70ad Jerusalem comes to mind........as also shown in Revelation 17,18 and 19.......
A member just posted this new thread and I was only to happy to post my preterist view of it.
Can't wait to see how the Dspensationalist Futurists reply.........:)

Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Also see: Rapture refuted

The Destruction/Demolition Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS Relative to that event.

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.......................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover
; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21...............

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations,
and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.


And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"
===================================
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is She, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
==============================
History of the Destruction of Jerusalem & Josephan Studies Archives/timeline_military.html
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Edge said:
It does not say the end of the earth, so the end of the world must mean this present world as we know it or the end of this present age as confirmed in the Greek which in the case of Matthew 13 uses the word "Aion" meaning "age" which can also mean "this present age" or this present world system.
YES! I agree with thee!
Consummation of the 1st century OC Mosaic Temple Jewish Age!
Excelllent!:amen: :oldthumbsup: :ebil:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matt 24:3 "full end/consummation of the age"

Matthew and Mark shows them on the Mount of Olives.
Peter and James and John and Andrew are shown in Mark
All 3 ask these 2 questions "when shall these be? and what the sign?"
Matthew 24 has "sign of Thy parousia<2952> and full end of the age.
==============================

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?

and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?


Mark 13
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives over against the Temple,
Peter and James and John and Andrew inquired<1905> of Him according to own
4 Tell us! when these shall be?

and what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> all these to be consummated<4931>.


Luke 21
7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher!
when then shall these be being?

And what the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

===============================
Coincidentally, about 40yrs after this discourse is given, the Romans siege Jerusalem and according to Josephus, the 10th Legion, along with Titus encamped on the eastern side of the City on top of the Mount of Olivet, given them a clear view of the Temple.



Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @


"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


Legion X soon joins them, making a separate camp on the Mt. of Olives, east of the city ... May 1, 70. Nissan/Xanthicus 14.

View attachment 252031


Matthew 24:3....and what the sign of Thy parousia and full-end of the Age?

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee.[Revelation 18:8]and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee..
Luke 21:20 “Whenever ye see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that nigh is Her desolation.

=============================
Revelation 18
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows death and sorrow and famine.

19 For to one hour She was desolated.


....................................
e2627453385a4412ca715fcb879b5bd6.jpg


............................
I never saw a response to the above post concerning the "consummation of the Age"
That aside, how do others view the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as far a fulfilled prophecies go?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy[Revelation 18/OC Jerusalem], and the establishment of Christianity[NC Jerusalem] in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves -- are circumstances which must always insure to the subject of the following pages more than ordinary degrees of interest and importance.

Many eminent and learned men have employed their pens in the illustration of it ; but the fruits of their labours are, for the most part, contained in large and expensive works, out of the reach of numbers, to whom the discussion might prove equally interesting and improving.
For the use and gratification of such, the present Treatise, in a more accessible and familiar form, is diffidently offered to the public. In order that it might be better adapted for the general reader, critical inquiries and tedious details are equally avoided ; but it has been the care of the writer not to omit any important fact or argument that, in his opinion, tended to elucidate the subject. Countenanced by the example of many respectable names, he has ventured to introduce the extraordinary prodigies, which, according to Josephus, preceded the destruction of the Holy City. He has also added a few sentences in their defense, but he does not intend thereby to express his unqualified admission of their genuineness.
 
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Contenders Edge

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You did not find your story above in the words of Christ found in Matthew 25:31-46.

It came from you.

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, there will be no second chances at His Second Coming.


.


What I said did not come from me but came from passages such as Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20 which make very clear that the godly who are still alive on the earth when Christ returns will enter into His Kingdom which He will bring to the earth. Any of the wicked that are left alive will not be allowed to enter into His Kingdom, but will be cast into Hell.
 
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Contenders Edge

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The demolition and leveling of 70ad Jerusalem comes to mind........as also shown in Revelation 17,18 and 19.......
A member just posted this new thread and I was only to happy to post my preterist view of it.
Can't wait to see how the Dspensationalist Futurists reply.........:)


Soon enough LLOJ, Soon enough. But I am afraid you are horribly mistaken about what Revelation chapters 17-19 are talking about. Jerusalem is never called Babylon.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Soon enough LLOJ, Soon enough. But I am afraid you are horribly mistaken about what Revelation chapters 17-19 are talking about. Jerusalem is never called Babylon.
Jerusalem is called many names in Revelation.......Queen, Widow, Harlot, Great City.......

Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

com7fy8 said:
I would say the earthly Jerusalem, in any case, is not "the Jerusalem above", "which is the mother of us all", like we have written in Galatians 4:26.
Excellent com7 :oldthumbsup: :amen:
Galatians 4 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake............

Galatians 4:
21Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman. 23However, the son by the handmaid was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise.
24These things contain an allegory, for these are two Covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. 25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for She is in bondage with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, "Rejoice, you barren who don't bear. Break forth and shout, you that don't travail. For more are the children of the desolate[OC than of her[NC] who has a husband."
28Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
30However what does the Scripture say? "Throw out the handmaid and her son, for the son of the handmaid will not inherit with the son of the free woman."
31So then, brothers, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the free woman.
====================================
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'


Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is She, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave
 
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Contenders Edge

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I never saw a response to the above post concerning the "consummation of the Age"
That aside, how do others view the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple as far a fulfilled prophecies go?


You did in fact list "The Consummation Of The Age" as a separate thread and while it may tie into this thread, responding to directly from this thread could lead away from the topic of this thread, but do not worry, I will be visiting that thread as it is part of growing list of threads to visit after the discussions and debates on this one have reached their final conclusion.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You did in fact list "The Consummation Of The Age" as a separate thread and while it may tie into this thread, responding to directly from this thread could lead away from the topic of this thread, but do not worry, I will be visiting that thread as it is part of growing list of threads to visit after the discussions and debates on this one have reached their final conclusion.
It does tie into this thread and I will continue quoting from the COVENANTLE book of Revelation quite often on here......

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?
 
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Contenders Edge

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Jerusalem is called many names in Revelation.......Queen, Widow, Harlot, Great City.......

Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?


Excellent com7 :oldthumbsup: :amen:
Galatians 4 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake............

Galatians 4:
21Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman. 23However, the son by the handmaid was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise.
24These things contain an allegory, for these are two Covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. 25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for She is in bondage with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, "Rejoice, you barren who don't bear. Break forth and shout, you that don't travail. For more are the children of the desolate[OC than of her[NC] who has a husband."
28Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
30However what does the Scripture say? "Throw out the handmaid and her son, for the son of the handmaid will not inherit with the son of the free woman."
31So then, brothers, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the free woman.
====================================
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'


Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is She, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave


I do not see where abouts in the book of Revelation Jerusalem is ever called a widow. In your cited passage of Lamentations, she is likened unto a widow but one who is destitute. Babylon boasts that she is no widow. Jerusalem never calls herself a sitting queen. Babylon does. Jerusalem was called a harlot for her idolatry. Babylon is called the Great Harlot, suggesting that her idolatry at this point in time will exceed the idolatry of even Jerusalem and her influence is worldwide as is made clear in Revelation chapters 17 and 18.

Jerusalem, though punished before, and more than once, is not destined for final destruction. Babylon is destined for a final destruction and in a manner much worse than anything Jerusalem has ever or ever will experience.
 
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It does tie into this thread and I will continue quoting from the COVENANTLE book of Revelation quite often on here......

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?


So be it. But I will only respond to what I believe to be the most relevant to the topic of this thread.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Jerusalem is called many names in Revelation.......Queen, Widow, Harlot, Great City.......
Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

Excellent com7 :oldthumbsup: :amen:
Galatians 4 and Revelation go together like frosting on a cake............

Galatians 4:
21Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman. 23However, the son by the handmaid was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise.
24These things contain an allegory, for these are two Covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar. 25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for She is in bondage with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, "Rejoice, you barren who don't bear. Break forth and shout, you that don't travail. For more are the children of the desolate[OC than of her[NC] who has a husband."
28Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
30However what does the Scripture say? "Throw out the handmaid and her son, for the son of the handmaid will not inherit with the son of the free woman."
31So then, brothers, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the free woman.
====================================
Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is She
, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave
I do not see where abouts in the book of Revelation Jerusalem is ever called a widow. In your cited passage of Lamentations, she is likened unto a widow but one who is destitute. Babylon boasts that she is no widow. Jerusalem never calls herself a sitting queen. Babylon does. Jerusalem was called a harlot for her idolatry. Babylon is called the Great Harlot, suggesting that her idolatry at this point in time will exceed the idolatry of even Jerusalem and her influence is worldwide as is made clear in Revelation chapters 17 and 18.

Jerusalem, though punished before, and more than once, is not destined for final destruction. Babylon is destined for a final destruction and in a manner much worse than anything Jerusalem has ever or ever will experience.
Oh I forgot. 1st century Jerusalem/Babylon is also spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt".
I am putting links to these threads for other members' edification also, not just for you.......

Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

Luke 17:29
and on the day Lot went forth from Sodom, He rained fire and brimstone/sulphur<2303> from heaven, and destroyed all.

Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies upon the broad-place of the great City which-any being spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also/even their Lord was crucified.
 
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Oh I forgot. 1st century Jerusalem/Babylon is also spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt".
I am putting links to these threads for other members' edification also, not just for you.......

Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

Luke 17:29
and on the day Lot went forth from Sodom, He rained fire and brimstone/sulphur<2303> from heaven, and destroyed all.

Revelation 11:8

And their dead bodies upon the broad-place of the great City which-any being spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also/even their Lord was crucified.


That Jerusalem is called figuratively Sodom and Egypt at the time the events of Revelation chapter 11 cannot be denied and is in reference to the spiritual and moral state of the city in that day but which of course will also reflect that of the entire world at that time. But Jerusalem does not remain "Sodom" and "Egypt" for long as the chapter also reveals.
 
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BABerean2

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That Jerusalem is called figuratively Sodom and Egypt at the time the events of Revelation chapter 11 cannot be denied and is in reference to the spiritual and moral state of the city in that day but which of course will also reflect that of the entire world at that time. But Jerusalem does not remain "Sodom" and "Egypt" for long as the chapter also reveals.

2018

.
 
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claninja

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In post 1165, I noticed that you said that "The Law is part of the old covenant, but the law is not the old covenant. Do we nullify the law? no, we uphold the law"

If the law was not made void by the passing of the Old Covenant, then in applying that same logic to the matter of land restoration, that is still upheld as well. We do not obey the law because we think it will save us, because we know that it cannot no matter how hard we try to keep it, but rather, our reasoning for upholding the law is out of love for our Lord out of gratitude for the forgiveness of sins we have received in Christ, and in our heartfelt desire to please and honor God with every part of our lives in everything we say and do and in every choice and decision we make.

But if the law is not the Old Covenant, then it is carried into the New Testament but for purposes that have nothing to do with salvation. The promises as they pertain to the nation of Israel would also in that sense be upheld but under different terms than the Old Covenant. They would be upheld under the terms of grace rather than obedience to the law.

Let me clarify in case there was a misunderstanding.

I'm talking about the law as in the 613 commands of Moses, not the 1st 5 books of the Bible. The old covenant was Israel's agreement to follow those 613 commands in order to receive earthly blessings from God 's agreement (Deuteronomy 28:1-14).

But Israel could not keep their end of the agreement as we read throughout the OT, thus they faced the curses of the law.
And so God spoke of a future covenant, not like the old covenant, that would one day supersede the old covenant and make it obsolete (Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8:6-13)

When Christ fulfilled the law and instituted the new covenant through his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension, many parts of the 613 commandments were changed (priest hood - Hebrews 7; sacrifices and temple worship - Hebrews 10; feasts, Sabbaths, new moons, food, drink - colossians 2, temple services, circumcision, etc...). This led to the righteous standards of the law being fulfilled in us (romans 8:4) and what was left was the freedom to love God and love our neighbor as ourself and this is what we are to uphold (romans 13:10, romans 3:31), not for salvation but because of our love for Jesus.

the 613 commandments do not equal the old covenant. The term covenant means agreement. The old covenant was a 2 party agreement for Israel to obey the 613 commands in order for God to bestow blessings upon them.

As scripture is very clear, this agreement was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:6-13).

The law of moses was changed and the promises of the old covenant were superseded by better promises.

So where is land restoration clearly and explicitly mentioned in the NT as part of the new covenant?

gave you the following passages (Rom. 11:12, 15, Rev. 7:1-9, chapter 11, and Rev. 14:1-5) which imply land restoration but which you have rejected.

Romans 11:12,15, Revelation 7:1-9 don't mention the land restoration or the land of Israel. "implying" is not the same as it actually being in scripture.

No land restoration is mentioned in Revelation 11. Revelation 11 mentions the holy city being trampled by the Gentiles for 42 months. As revelation is a highly symbolic and apocalyptic book, we should use scripture to interpret scripture. Using Luke, we can see that the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentiles refers to 1st century Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24 And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

No land restoration is mentioned in revelation 14. Only the winepress being trodden down outside the "city".

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia.


Romans 11:12 implies land restoration since the fulness of Israel has always been evidenced by the earthly blessings bestowed upon them, existing as a sovereign nation in their homeland, and an exalted status; all of which will meet their complete fulfillment when they receive Christ as their Messiah. Repentance and cessation from unbelief is what will lead to the fulfillment of all the promises pertaining to the nation of Israel.

In order to prove a fallacy in informal logic, you would have to be able to prove that the fulness of Israel is not evidenced by any of this.

Implies = interpretation, as it doesn't explicitly and clearly mention land restoration in romans 11:12.Thus your implication is debatable interpretation.

Your inability to provide a verse from Romans 11 that explicitly and clearly (not by debatable implication) mentions land restoration already proves my argument for me.


If it were not for Paul revealing the intent of Hosea 1:10, we would all believe that it was speaking only of the house of Israel, but because Paul has declared the passage to pertain to the Gentiles, it must be accepted accordingly. But he never associates the house of Israel with the Gentiles and in order for Genesis 48:19 to be fulfilled, nations claiming descent from the house of Israel would have to arise. Otherwise, there is no fulfillment.

You create contradictions in your own explanation. On one hand you agree that we would have no idea the house of Israel in hosea 1 refers to the gentiles unless Paul told us, which he does in romans 9:23-26. Then on the other hand you state Paul never associates the house of Israel with the gentiles. 2 polar opposite and contradicting statements.


That may not stop all of them, but can be still be a limiting factor. Persecution or the threat thereof may prevent mixing altogether.

religion and culture didn't stop disobedient Ephraim from mixing with nations prior to the Assyrian exile.

Hosea 7:8 Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is an unturned cake.

Some within the nation of Israel were partakers of the New Covenant but not the nation as a whole. That is still to come. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

So why didn't the remnant that received Christ in the 1st century keep the land?

Revelation 7:1-9 makes clear that tribal status still exists.

Assuming your interpretation of a highly symbolic book is correct.

Israel's wanderings in the wilderness are not cited as a shadow of the testing of Jesus in the wilderness. Israel was made to wander in the wilderness for their lack of faith. Was Jesus led out into the wilderness to be punished or tested?

This rebuttal is very ironic, considering you believe that land restoration is "implied" but not explicitly or clearly mentioned.

To answer your question: to be tested.


That the Spiritual is better than the natural is not the issue being debated, but we are only called Israel in the figurative and spiritual sense, never in a literal sense and it is only in Romans chapter 9 that the title of Israel is ever applied to the Church. It is never applied to the Church any where else in the New Testament and there is a reason for that. Because there continues to remain a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church, but the nation of Israel will eventually embrace Christ (Rom. 11:26) just as the rest of us.

When the modern day nation of Israel embraces Christ will that make them a part of the church?


Then in that case, I suppose then my so-called "strawman" argument is not the "strawman" you claim it is. Otherwise, you would have attempted to refute it.

Here's what you originally stated, for the readers benefit, in regards to my position that the CONDITIONAL PROMISES of the old covenant have been superseded the promises of the new covenant.



This quote is from you "Just show which scriptures that state that God is not capable of fulfilling in the New Testament what was not fulfilled beforehand."

You appear to believe that because I believe the conditional promises of the old covenant were superseded by the better promises of the new covenant, then I believe God is not faithful in fulfilling his promises, so you asked me to provide a verse that God is not faithful in fulfilling promises. This is a strawman argument, as I don't believe that God is not faithful to fulfill his promises.

His first epistle indicates that Peter's audience was a Gentile audience because Peter 1:1 calls the people whom he is addressing "strangers". The people of Israel are never called strangers, but Gentiles are. Because his second epistle does not give any indication that he is addressing a different audience than his first epistle, we can only assume he is addressing the same audience.

I would argue his audience was Israel (jew and grafted in gentile)

1.) his ministry was primarily to the Jews

Galatians 2:8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),

2.) He applies hosea 1 to them.
1 Peter 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

3.) His audience it to keep their conduct among the GENTILES honorable
1 Peter 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

At least you recognize that marriage was not used as an illustration of the relationship Christ has with His Church until much later.

Right, it was mystery revealed after Christ ascended. I'm just glad we could find agreement on this

The parable of the hidden treasure was meant to illustrate how precious the Kingdom of Heaven should be to us, which is why Jesus compared it to a hidden treasure. That is the message that the parable conveys.

Most of the parables are fully understood, and even those few that may be hard to understand at least give us some insight as to what they mean and enough to understand that they are parables.

Please provide specific verse where Jesus provides the explanation of the parable of the hidden treasure. I can't seem to find it.


 
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And at the present, the stage is already being set for the day in which the events of Revelation chapter 11 will meet their fulfillment turning the city that was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah to a repentant city as the scriptures go further to tell of events that will cause the people of the city to be filled with fear and give glory to God.
 
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