Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[Contenders Edge]

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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So, if the nation of Israel embraces Christ, will they then not become joint-heirs with Him according to the promise? And if so, will they, or will they not, as joint-heirs, share in the inheritance of the promised land?

 

[keras]

Paul is not connecting the Gentiles to the ten northern tribes of Israel as Claninja has claimed.

But they ARE connected. Paul infers this in Acts 26:7 and James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, confirm it.

Josephus says in the History of the Jews, that the 10 Northern tribes were still scattered among the nations and were a huge number of people at that time. Now they are as uncountable as the sands of the sea and it is them who will occupy all of the holy Land, being the people that God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6-8, Matthew 5:14-16.
If this is not the case, then the Mission of Jesus was a failure, He came to save the lost people of Israel, who were obviously not the Jewish people, as they didn't accept Him and remain in apostasy today.
Your idea of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and will never happen. Isaiah 22:14

 

[jgr]

There is more to that fulfillment than just the passage you persist in misrepresenting. That the Gospels did apply Zechariah 12:10 to Jews who were witnessed showing grief at the death of Christ cannot be denied, but the succeeding verses reveal a greater day of mourning to come when our Lord returns that did not take place even at His death upon the cross. The events of Zechariah 13:9 did not take place in the lifetime of Caiaphas but are yet to come. Caiaphas will obviously not be a player in that day.

So Zechariah 12:10 is not associated with the Zechariah 13:9 dispensational remnant?

 

[BABerean2]

So, if the nation of Israel embraces Christ, will they then not become joint-heirs with Him according to the promise? And if so, will they, or will they not, as joint-heirs, share in the inheritance of the promised land?

Yes, but based on Hebrews 11:15-16, that promised land is not on this earth.

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[Contenders Edge]

Being prosperous in the land was associated with the old covenant agreement. If Israel obeyed, God would prosper them in the land (deuteronomy 28:1-14). If Israel disobeyed, the would be taken off the land and cursed (deuteronomy 28:15-68). If Israel repented and turned to the Lord, they would be restored to the land (deuteronomy 30:2). This is all a part of the old covenant.

The OT spells out the promises of the old covenant which were conditional on obedience.

Where does the NT spell out land restoration as a part of the new covenant? After all these responses I'm still waiting for you to answer the OP, since you decided to chime in on this thread. And still you have not provided one NT verse that specifically and clearly mentions land restoration. I know again, you probably won't answer but will deflect.

In post 1165, I noticed that you said that "The Law is part of the old covenant, but the law is not the old covenant. Do we nullify the law? no, we uphold the law"

If the law was not made void by the passing of the Old Covenant, then in applying that same logic to the matter of land restoration, that is still upheld as well. We do not obey the law because we think it will save us, because we know that it cannot no matter how hard we try to keep it, but rather, our reasoning for upholding the law is out of love for our Lord out of gratitude for the forgiveness of sins we have received in Christ, and in our heartfelt desire to please and honor God with every part of our lives in everything we say and do and in every choice and decision we make.

And the manner in which we live our lives and where our priorities lie serves as evidence of our professed faith in Christ.

But if the law is not the Old Covenant, then it is carried into the New Testament but for purposes that have nothing to do with salvation. The promises as they pertain to the nation of Israel would also in that sense be upheld but under different terms than the Old Covenant. They would be upheld under the terms of grace rather than obedience to the law.

I gave you the following passages (Rom. 11:12, 15, Rev. 7:1-9, chapter 11, and Rev. 14:1-5) which imply land restoration but which you have rejected.

Another fallacy in informal logic. Romans 11 does not mention land restoration.

What did Paul view as evidence of their fullness? Not continuing in unbelief.
You are the one claiming land restoration is found in romans 11 (a positive assertion, not a negative assertion), thus the burden of proof is on you to prove Paul is talking about the land restoration.

Romans 11:12 implies land restoration since the fulness of Israel has always been evidenced by the earthly blessings bestowed upon them, existing as a sovereign nation in their homeland, and an exalted status; all of which will meet their complete fulfillment when they receive Christ as their Messiah. Repentance and cessation from unbelief is what will lead to the fulfillment of all the promises pertaining to the nation of Israel.

In order to prove a fallacy in informal logic, you would have to be able to prove that the fulness of Israel is not evidenced by any of this.

More deflection. It appears you do not want to have an actual conversation. Typically in discussions, when one asks a question, the other party answers. I asked the question first, but you continue to not answer and deflect with a question. Answer my question first then I will answer your question. If you are not going to answer my question, I'm not sure why you keep responding.

Because you keep responding and that is your choice. As long as you counter respond to my replies, I will continue to respond in turn.

Good, so you agree the grammatical historical subject of hosea 1 that became "not my people" is the house of Israel.

Now I will answer your question (that's how discussions work): who did Paul believe God was referring to in Hosea 1? Well in Romans 9:23-26, he relates the the grammatical historical subject of the northern kingdom in hosea 1 to the gentiles.

So how can the gentiles being included with the jews in the vessels of mercy fulfill hosea 1's grammatical historical subject of the house of Israel (not my people) becoming God's people again?

Simple, the divorced, exiled and scattered descendants of the northern kingdom mixed with the nations and became as gentiles thus fulfilling Genesis 48:19.

If it were not for Paul revealing the intent of Hosea 1:10, we would all believe that it was speaking only of the house of Israel, but because Paul has declared the passage to pertain to the Gentiles, it must be accepted accordingly. But he never associates the house of Israel with the Gentiles and in order for Genesis 48:19 to be fulfilled, nations claiming descent from the house of Israel would have to arise. Otherwise, there is no fulfillment.

Religous and cultural barriers? that didn't stop the Jews from taking foreign spouses and mixing with the peoples of the lands. If the Jews did, how much more the divorced exiles deported and resettled throughout the Assyrian empire?

That may not stop all of them, but can be still be a limiting factor. Persecution or the threat thereof may prevent mixing altogether.

in post 1085 you stated : "The difference between them and Israel is that Israel was not spread abroad before the exile. The Greeks, on the other hand, were present throughout various lands before their Diaspora."

Post 1085 shows that you did in fact state that Israel was not spread abroad before the exile.
I then stated: Israel was not spread out over the world prior to the roman legions destroying Jerusalem? and posted acts 2, which shows Jews did live abroad prior to the roman legions destroying Jerusalem.

You only had the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in mind when it came to the forced dispersion of the Jews. I had in mind the forced dispersion of the Israelites begun by the Assyrians and completed by Babylon with the exile of Judah as well as that by the Romans. I apologize if that was lacking in clarification.

They were partakers of the new covenant in the 1st century, no?

Some within the nation of Israel were partakers of the New Covenant but not the nation as a whole. That is still to come. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

Tribal status is found in the old covenant. The old covenant no longer exists, thus genealogies are no longer needed and are worthless (titus 3:9). Anyone, regardless of race, is a child of abraham if they are in Christ (galatians 3:28-29)

Revelation 7:1-9 makes clear that tribal status still exists.

Israel was brought into the wilderness as punishment, but also to test them. So it's just coincidence that Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days facing the same temptations that Israel faced?

Israel's wanderings in the wilderness are not cited as a shadow of the testing of Jesus in the wilderness. Israel was made to wander in the wilderness for their lack of faith. Was Jesus led out into the wilderness to be punished or tested?

Jesus, a natural descendant of Abraham, a citizen of Israel fulfilled all that the nation of Israel failed to obtain. Now all those who are in Christ, the true representative of Israel, are Israel.
I would argue Spiritual is better than natural, do you disagree?

That the Spiritual is better than the natural is not the issue being debated, but we are only called Israel in the figurative and spiritual sense, never in a literal sense and it is only in Romans chapter 9 that the title of Israel is ever applied to the Church. It is never applied to the Church any where else in the New Testament and there is a reason for that. Because there continues to remain a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church, but the nation of Israel will eventually embrace Christ (Rom. 11:26) just as the rest of us.

"Who will fulfill all that the scripture says and has foretold."
Jesus

I was not asking a question as you have made it out to appear. That was a counter rebuttal to which you replied.

No, I decline to answer your strawman argument.

Then in that case, I suppose then my so-called "strawman" argument is not the "strawman" you claim it is. Otherwise, you would have attempted to refute it.

Peter was applying that scripture to his audience, who was Israel.

His first epistle indicates that Peter's audience was a Gentile audience because Peter 1:1 calls the people whom he is addressing "strangers". The people of Israel are never called strangers, but Gentiles are. Because his second epistle does not give any indication that he is addressing a different audience than his first epistle, we can only assume he is addressing the same audience.

Genesis 2 doesn't, I agree. But Paul does in Ephesians 5:31-32

At least you recognize that marriage was not used as an illustration of the relationship Christ has with His Church until much later.

Where is the explanation provided for the parable of the hidden treasure?
If the parables are not fully understood, should we take them as literal stories and not earthly stories intended to point to a heavenly meaning?

The parable of the hidden treasure was meant to illustrate how precious the Kingdom of Heaven should be to us, which is why Jesus compared it to a hidden treasure. That is the message that the parable conveys.

Most of the parables are fully understood, and even those few that may be hard to understand at least give us some insight as to what they mean and enough to understand that they are parables.​

 

[Contenders Edge]

But they ARE connected. Paul infers this in Acts 26:7 and James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, confirm it.

Josephus says in the History of the Jews, that the 10 Northern tribes were still scattered among the nations and were a huge number of people at that time. Now they are as uncountable as the sands of the sea and it is them who will occupy all of the holy Land, being the people that God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43-19, john 15:29 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6-8, Matthew 3:14-16.
If this is not the case, then the Mission of Jesus was a failure, He came to save the lost people of Israel, who were obviously not the Jewish people, as they didn't accept Him and remain in apostasy today.
Your idea of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and will never happen. Isaiah 22:14

The cited passages do not in any way, shape or form give any indication that the Gentiles mentioned are descended from any of the ten northern tribes of Israel, the passages of Isaiah 43:19 and Matthew 3:14-16 have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make, the fifteenth chapter of John only has 27 verses, not 29, and Isaiah 22:14 was already fulfilled when Judah was carried away into exile by Babylon.

 

[Contenders Edge]

So Zechariah 12:10 is not associated with the Zechariah 13:9 dispensational remnant?

No, it cannot as far as its near-fulfillment is concerned because there is no record of the things of which the succeeding verses speak of ever taking place in that generation. Zechariah 12:10 is destined for a further fulfillment and foretells a bitter remorse the people will have for having rejected their Messiah for so long before being rescued by Him from their enemies. It will be a remorse such as they have never had before nor ever will have again.

A more in depth study of Zechariah chapters 12-14 might help to clear things up.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Yes, but based on Hebrews 11:15-16, that promised land is not on this earth.

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The promised land as it pertains to Israel is, but the promised land that pertains to all people is yet to come and of which Israel will be made a part.

 

[BABerean2]

The promised land as it pertains to Israel is, but the promised land that pertains to all people is yet to come and of which Israel will be made a part.

Are you saying that if I accept Christ, and I also pass a certain DNA test, then I can lay claim to a piece of land in the Middle East?

How much Abrahamic, or Jewish DNA do I need to pass your test?

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[Contenders Edge]

Are you saying that if I accept Christ, and I also pass a certain DNA test, then I can lay claim to a piece of land in the Middle East?

How much Abrahamic, or Jewish DNA do I need to pass your test?

.

That would be your choice. As for how much Jewish DNA one would need to get a foot in the door for Israeli citizenship, if there is a consensus on that, ministries like Jews for Jesus and other similar organizations might be able to answer that one. But the presence of any Jewish genes in one's DNA is strongly considered by many in the Jewish community. Beyond that, no consensus can be reached.

 

[jgr]

So Zechariah 12:10 is not associated with the Zechariah 13:9 dispensational remnant?

No, it cannot as far as its near-fulfillment is concerned because there is no record of the things of which the succeeding verses speak of ever taking place in that generation. Zechariah 12:10 is destined for a further fulfillment and foretells a bitter remorse the people will have for having rejected their Messiah for so long before being rescued by Him from their enemies. It will be a remorse such as they have never had before nor ever will have again.

A more in depth study of Zechariah chapters 12-14 might help to clear things up.

The dispensational godfathers reached the obvious dispensational conclusion.

Zechariah 12:10 is referring to the dispensational remnant, which can only be the dispensational remnant of Zechariah 13:9.

Caiaphas et al are the only possible dispensational fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

They are the only ones who pierced Him.

They will be dispensationally resurrected, along with every other genetic Jew, in that day.

Two thirds of those will be dispensationally liquidated.

But Caiaphas et al will be among the dispensational one third remnant present in Zechariah 12:10.

They will receive dispensational salvation.

We'll dispensationally see and greet them on the streets of gold.


Darby:

The introduction of Antichrist, a shepherd [See Note #1] in Israel, brings in also the events that crowd around Jerusalem in the last days. All the nations should be gathered round Jerusalem, but only to find it a burdensome stone that should crush them. God would judge the power of man, but would raise up His people in sovereign grace. He would destroy the nations that had come up against Jerusalem. The deliverance of the people by the power of Jehovah comes first. This is sovereign grace to the chief of sinners-the feeble but beloved Judah, who had added to all her rebellion against God, the despisal and rejection of her King and Saviour.

The grace of God takes the lead over all the resources of man. The audacity of the enemies of God's people stirs up His affection, which never diminishes; and thus, by compelling God to act, this very audacity becomes the means of proving the faithfulness of His love. Judah, guilty yet beloved Judah, is delivered-that is to say, the remnant, to whom the affliction of Israel had been a burden; but the question of her conduct towards her God still remained.


Scofield:

Zech. 12.-14. from one prophecy the general theme of which is the return of the Lord and the establishment of the kingdom. The order is:

(1) The siege of Jerusalem preceding the battle of Armageddon (Zech 12:1-3);

(2) the battle itself (Zech 12:4-9);

(3) the "latter rain" in the pouring out of the Spirit and the personal revelation of Christ to the family of David and the remnant in Jerusalem, not merely as the glorious Deliverer, but as the One whom Israel pierced and has long rejected (Zech 12:10);

(4) the godly sorrow which follows that revelation (Zech 12:11-14);

(5) the cleansing fountain Zech 13:1 then to be effectually "opened" to Israel.

 

[keras]

The cited passages do not in any way, shape or form give any indication that the Gentiles mentioned are descended from any of the ten northern tribes of Israel, the passages of Isaiah 43:19 and Matthew 3:14-16 have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make, the fifteenth chapter of John only has 27 verses, not 29, and Isaiah 22:14 was already fulfilled when Judah was carried away into exile by Babylon.

With your beliefs, CE, you will need good luck when the end times events commence. Because you surely do not have good understanding of what God has made to happen in the past and what He plans for our future.

Jesus clearly stated who it was that He came to save. If you like to think the Jews are all of Israel- a gross misunderstanding; then Jesus' mission was a failure.
But the Northern ten tribes of the House of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria 135 years before the House of Judah was exiled by Babylon, are still extant and God has drawn a veil of secrecy over their whereabouts today. The prophesies of Jacob and Moses give us many clues and there is historical, etc, evidence that they comprise the majority in the Western nations. The Christian peoples!
It's quite simple really and if people deny that Christians are the Israelites of God, they are opposing plain facts, plus Bible teaching about who are the Overcomers for God.

I have corrected my typos in #1182, Must be more careful!

 

[BABerean2]

But the presence of any Jewish genes in one's DNA is strongly considered by many in the Jewish community.

How much is "any"?

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[joshua 1 9]

And if so, will they, or will they not, as joint-heirs, share in the inheritance of the promised land?

The New Jerusalem is 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. This is the entire Arab Continental plate. This is the land promised to Abraham and his descendants. As gentiles we are told that we are grafted in or adopted into the family of Abraham. We are told that when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives there will be an earthquake. The east will be split from the west AND the north from the south. We can see from plate technotics that is exactly what is going to happen. This should leave no doubt that there is a time when Jesus will physically return to the Earth at the exact spot He departed from. The mount of Olives is very close to the temple mount. You can see one when your are standing on the other.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Are you saying that if I accept Christ, and I also pass a certain DNA test, then I can lay claim to a piece of land in the Middle East?

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev 20:6) For some the question is: What does it mean to be a Priest of God and of Christ.

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (1Peter2:9)

Is the resurrection power of God already at work in your life?

 

[joshua 1 9]

If the law was not made void by the passing of the Old Covenant

Jesus made it clear that the law is NOT going to pass away:

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 24:18

Some of the letters require 5 pen stokes to make. Every stroke of the pen has infinite symbolic meaning.

 

[jgr]

Jesus made it clear that the law is NOT going to pass away:

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 24:18

Some of the letters require 5 pen stokes to make. Every stroke of the pen has infinite symbolic meaning.

And they were.

In Christ's perfect complete sacrifice at Calvary.

Luke 18:31
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

 

[joshua 1 9]

In Christ's perfect complete sacrifice at Calvary.

Yes Jesus said it was finished. Before I was born and before HE began to do a finished work in my life. Jesus lived HIS life as an example for us to follow.

 

[Contenders Edge]

The dispensational godfathers reached the obvious dispensational conclusion.

Zechariah 12:10 is referring to the dispensational remnant, which can only be the dispensational remnant of Zechariah 13:9.

Caiaphas et al are the only possible dispensational fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

They are the only ones who pierced Him.

They will be dispensationally resurrected, along with every other genetic Jew, in that day.

Two thirds of those will be dispensationally liquidated.

But Caiaphas et al will be among the dispensational one third remnant present in Zechariah 12:10.

They will receive dispensational salvation.

We'll dispensationally see and greet them on the streets of gold.


Darby:

The introduction of Antichrist, a shepherd [See Note #1] in Israel, brings in also the events that crowd around Jerusalem in the last days. All the nations should be gathered round Jerusalem, but only to find it a burdensome stone that should crush them. God would judge the power of man, but would raise up His people in sovereign grace. He would destroy the nations that had come up against Jerusalem. The deliverance of the people by the power of Jehovah comes first. This is sovereign grace to the chief of sinners-the feeble but beloved Judah, who had added to all her rebellion against God, the despisal and rejection of her King and Saviour.

The grace of God takes the lead over all the resources of man. The audacity of the enemies of God's people stirs up His affection, which never diminishes; and thus, by compelling God to act, this very audacity becomes the means of proving the faithfulness of His love. Judah, guilty yet beloved Judah, is delivered-that is to say, the remnant, to whom the affliction of Israel had been a burden; but the question of her conduct towards her God still remained.


Scofield:

Zech. 12.-14. from one prophecy the general theme of which is the return of the Lord and the establishment of the kingdom. The order is:

(1) The siege of Jerusalem preceding the battle of Armageddon (Zech 12:1-3);

(2) the battle itself (Zech 12:4-9);

(3) the "latter rain" in the pouring out of the Spirit and the personal revelation of Christ to the family of David and the remnant in Jerusalem, not merely as the glorious Deliverer, but as the One whom Israel pierced and has long rejected (Zech 12:10);

(4) the godly sorrow which follows that revelation (Zech 12:11-14);

(5) the cleansing fountain Zech 13:1 then to be effectually "opened" to Israel.

The so-called dispensationalist godfathers you cited did not include Caiaphas or anyone else in that generation in the remnant described in Zechariah 13:9.

Again, you have misrepresented the scriptures by disregarding of the full counsel of chapters 12-14 in Zechariah. Darby Scofield for their part have taken the full counsel of those chapters into account.

They believe that a further fulfillment on a larger scale of Zechariah 12:10 is yet to come. As said before, nothing described in the passages afterward ever took place on the day Jesus was crucified or at any time in that generation. They are events that are yet to come. Caiaphas has been long dead. It would be impossible for him to be included among the remnant described in Zechariah 13:9

 

[Contenders Edge]

Jesus made it clear that the law is NOT going to pass away:

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 24:18

Some of the letters require 5 pen stokes to make. Every stroke of the pen has infinite symbolic meaning.

If you are implying that I said the law was made void by the passing of the Old Covenant, I never said such a thing. You will not find me saying that here, on my external blogsite, or any other external account where Contender's Edge is present. If on the other hand that was not your thought, then we are in agreement as far as that goes.