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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, if the nation of Israel embraces Christ, will they then not become joint-heirs with Him according to the promise? And if so, will they, or will they not, as joint-heirs, share in the inheritance of the promised land?
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    But they ARE connected. Paul infers this in Acts 26:7 and James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, confirm it.

    Josephus says in the History of the Jews, that the 10 Northern tribes were still scattered among the nations and were a huge number of people at that time. Now they are as uncountable as the sands of the sea and it is them who will occupy all of the holy Land, being the people that God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6-8, Matthew 5:14-16.
    If this is not the case, then the Mission of Jesus was a failure, He came to save the lost people of Israel, who were obviously not the Jewish people, as they didn't accept Him and remain in apostasy today.
    Your idea of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and will never happen. Isaiah 22:14
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So Zechariah 12:10 is not associated with the Zechariah 13:9 dispensational remnant?
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, but based on Hebrews 11:15-16, that promised land is not on this earth.

    .
     
  5. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In post 1165, I noticed that you said that "The Law is part of the old covenant, but the law is not the old covenant. Do we nullify the law? no, we uphold the law"

    If the law was not made void by the passing of the Old Covenant, then in applying that same logic to the matter of land restoration, that is still upheld as well. We do not obey the law because we think it will save us, because we know that it cannot no matter how hard we try to keep it, but rather, our reasoning for upholding the law is out of love for our Lord out of gratitude for the forgiveness of sins we have received in Christ, and in our heartfelt desire to please and honor God with every part of our lives in everything we say and do and in every choice and decision we make.

    And the manner in which we live our lives and where our priorities lie serves as evidence of our professed faith in Christ.

    But if the law is not the Old Covenant, then it is carried into the New Testament but for purposes that have nothing to do with salvation. The promises as they pertain to the nation of Israel would also in that sense be upheld but under different terms than the Old Covenant. They would be upheld under the terms of grace rather than obedience to the law.

    I gave you the following passages (Rom. 11:12, 15, Rev. 7:1-9, chapter 11, and Rev. 14:1-5) which imply land restoration but which you have rejected.





    Romans 11:12 implies land restoration since the fulness of Israel has always been evidenced by the earthly blessings bestowed upon them, existing as a sovereign nation in their homeland, and an exalted status; all of which will meet their complete fulfillment when they receive Christ as their Messiah. Repentance and cessation from unbelief is what will lead to the fulfillment of all the promises pertaining to the nation of Israel.

    In order to prove a fallacy in informal logic, you would have to be able to prove that the fulness of Israel is not evidenced by any of this.



    Because you keep responding and that is your choice. As long as you counter respond to my replies, I will continue to respond in turn.





    If it were not for Paul revealing the intent of Hosea 1:10, we would all believe that it was speaking only of the house of Israel, but because Paul has declared the passage to pertain to the Gentiles, it must be accepted accordingly. But he never associates the house of Israel with the Gentiles and in order for Genesis 48:19 to be fulfilled, nations claiming descent from the house of Israel would have to arise. Otherwise, there is no fulfillment.



    That may not stop all of them, but can be still be a limiting factor. Persecution or the threat thereof may prevent mixing altogether.





    You only had the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans in mind when it came to the forced dispersion of the Jews. I had in mind the forced dispersion of the Israelites begun by the Assyrians and completed by Babylon with the exile of Judah as well as that by the Romans. I apologize if that was lacking in clarification.



    Some within the nation of Israel were partakers of the New Covenant but not the nation as a whole. That is still to come. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)





    Revelation 7:1-9 makes clear that tribal status still exists.



    Israel's wanderings in the wilderness are not cited as a shadow of the testing of Jesus in the wilderness. Israel was made to wander in the wilderness for their lack of faith. Was Jesus led out into the wilderness to be punished or tested?



    That the Spiritual is better than the natural is not the issue being debated, but we are only called Israel in the figurative and spiritual sense, never in a literal sense and it is only in Romans chapter 9 that the title of Israel is ever applied to the Church. It is never applied to the Church any where else in the New Testament and there is a reason for that. Because there continues to remain a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church, but the nation of Israel will eventually embrace Christ (Rom. 11:26) just as the rest of us.




    I was not asking a question as you have made it out to appear. That was a counter rebuttal to which you replied.




    Then in that case, I suppose then my so-called "strawman" argument is not the "strawman" you claim it is. Otherwise, you would have attempted to refute it.



    His first epistle indicates that Peter's audience was a Gentile audience because Peter 1:1 calls the people whom he is addressing "strangers". The people of Israel are never called strangers, but Gentiles are. Because his second epistle does not give any indication that he is addressing a different audience than his first epistle, we can only assume he is addressing the same audience.





    At least you recognize that marriage was not used as an illustration of the relationship Christ has with His Church until much later.



    The parable of the hidden treasure was meant to illustrate how precious the Kingdom of Heaven should be to us, which is why Jesus compared it to a hidden treasure. That is the message that the parable conveys.

    Most of the parables are fully understood, and even those few that may be hard to understand at least give us some insight as to what they mean and enough to understand that they are parables.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  6. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The cited passages do not in any way, shape or form give any indication that the Gentiles mentioned are descended from any of the ten northern tribes of Israel, the passages of Isaiah 43:19 and Matthew 3:14-16 have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make, the fifteenth chapter of John only has 27 verses, not 29, and Isaiah 22:14 was already fulfilled when Judah was carried away into exile by Babylon.
     
  7. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, it cannot as far as its near-fulfillment is concerned because there is no record of the things of which the succeeding verses speak of ever taking place in that generation. Zechariah 12:10 is destined for a further fulfillment and foretells a bitter remorse the people will have for having rejected their Messiah for so long before being rescued by Him from their enemies. It will be a remorse such as they have never had before nor ever will have again.

    A more in depth study of Zechariah chapters 12-14 might help to clear things up.
     
  8. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The promised land as it pertains to Israel is, but the promised land that pertains to all people is yet to come and of which Israel will be made a part.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Are you saying that if I accept Christ, and I also pass a certain DNA test, then I can lay claim to a piece of land in the Middle East?

    How much Abrahamic, or Jewish DNA do I need to pass your test?


    .
     
  10. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That would be your choice. As for how much Jewish DNA one would need to get a foot in the door for Israeli citizenship, if there is a consensus on that, ministries like Jews for Jesus and other similar organizations might be able to answer that one. But the presence of any Jewish genes in one's DNA is strongly considered by many in the Jewish community. Beyond that, no consensus can be reached.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The dispensational godfathers reached the obvious dispensational conclusion.

    Zechariah 12:10 is referring to the dispensational remnant, which can only be the dispensational remnant of Zechariah 13:9.

    Caiaphas et al are the only possible dispensational fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

    They are the only ones who pierced Him.

    They will be dispensationally resurrected, along with every other genetic Jew, in that day.

    Two thirds of those will be dispensationally liquidated.

    But Caiaphas et al will be among the dispensational one third remnant present in Zechariah 12:10.

    They will receive dispensational salvation.

    We'll dispensationally see and greet them on the streets of gold.


    Darby:

    The introduction of Antichrist, a shepherd [See Note #1] in Israel, brings in also the events that crowd around Jerusalem in the last days. All the nations should be gathered round Jerusalem, but only to find it a burdensome stone that should crush them. God would judge the power of man, but would raise up His people in sovereign grace. He would destroy the nations that had come up against Jerusalem. The deliverance of the people by the power of Jehovah comes first. This is sovereign grace to the chief of sinners-the feeble but beloved Judah, who had added to all her rebellion against God, the despisal and rejection of her King and Saviour.

    The grace of God takes the lead over all the resources of man. The audacity of the enemies of God's people stirs up His affection, which never diminishes; and thus, by compelling God to act, this very audacity becomes the means of proving the faithfulness of His love. Judah, guilty yet beloved Judah, is delivered-that is to say, the remnant, to whom the affliction of Israel had been a burden; but the question of her conduct towards her God still remained.


    Scofield:

    Zech. 12.-14. from one prophecy the general theme of which is the return of the Lord and the establishment of the kingdom. The order is:

    (1) The siege of Jerusalem preceding the battle of Armageddon (Zech 12:1-3);

    (2) the battle itself (Zech 12:4-9);

    (3) the "latter rain" in the pouring out of the Spirit and the personal revelation of Christ to the family of David and the remnant in Jerusalem, not merely as the glorious Deliverer, but as the One whom Israel pierced and has long rejected (Zech 12:10);

    (4) the godly sorrow which follows that revelation (Zech 12:11-14);

    (5) the cleansing fountain Zech 13:1 then to be effectually "opened" to Israel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    With your beliefs, CE, you will need good luck when the end times events commence. Because you surely do not have good understanding of what God has made to happen in the past and what He plans for our future.

    Jesus clearly stated who it was that He came to save. If you like to think the Jews are all of Israel- a gross misunderstanding; then Jesus' mission was a failure.
    But the Northern ten tribes of the House of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria 135 years before the House of Judah was exiled by Babylon, are still extant and God has drawn a veil of secrecy over their whereabouts today. The prophesies of Jacob and Moses give us many clues and there is historical, etc, evidence that they comprise the majority in the Western nations. The Christian peoples!
    It's quite simple really and if people deny that Christians are the Israelites of God, they are opposing plain facts, plus Bible teaching about who are the Overcomers for God.

    I have corrected my typos in #1182, Must be more careful!
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How much is "any"?

    .
     
  14. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The New Jerusalem is 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. This is the entire Arab Continental plate. This is the land promised to Abraham and his descendants. As gentiles we are told that we are grafted in or adopted into the family of Abraham. We are told that when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives there will be an earthquake. The east will be split from the west AND the north from the south. We can see from plate technotics that is exactly what is going to happen. This should leave no doubt that there is a time when Jesus will physically return to the Earth at the exact spot He departed from. The mount of Olives is very close to the temple mount. You can see one when your are standing on the other.

    [​IMG]
     

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  15. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev 20:6) For some the question is: What does it mean to be a Priest of God and of Christ.

    "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (1Peter2:9)

    Is the resurrection power of God already at work in your life?
     
  16. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus made it clear that the law is NOT going to pass away:

    "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 24:18

    Some of the letters require 5 pen stokes to make. Every stroke of the pen has infinite symbolic meaning.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And they were.

    In Christ's perfect complete sacrifice at Calvary.

    Luke 18:31
    Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    John 19:28
    After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
     
  18. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes Jesus said it was finished. Before I was born and before HE began to do a finished work in my life. Jesus lived HIS life as an example for us to follow.
     
  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The so-called dispensationalist godfathers you cited did not include Caiaphas or anyone else in that generation in the remnant described in Zechariah 13:9.

    Again, you have misrepresented the scriptures by disregarding of the full counsel of chapters 12-14 in Zechariah. Darby Scofield for their part have taken the full counsel of those chapters into account.

    They believe that a further fulfillment on a larger scale of Zechariah 12:10 is yet to come. As said before, nothing described in the passages afterward ever took place on the day Jesus was crucified or at any time in that generation. They are events that are yet to come. Caiaphas has been long dead. It would be impossible for him to be included among the remnant described in Zechariah 13:9
     
  20. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you are implying that I said the law was made void by the passing of the Old Covenant, I never said such a thing. You will not find me saying that here, on my external blogsite, or any other external account where Contender's Edge is present. If on the other hand that was not your thought, then we are in agreement as far as that goes.
     
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