Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[~Zao~]

In an ontological hierarchy, it is an intrinsic design feature. Man is made for God, and the woman is made for God by being made for the man, to help him image God and thus glorify Him. As such, women will ironically learn more about godly femininity from the masculine man (or women submitted to their men in accordance with Titus 2:3-5), just as men will learn proper spiritual direction and leadership from God rather than other man (unless of course they are learning it from other men submitted to God who know the Word).



I have noticed this. This is really the paradox of humanity to God and femininity to men. When submission is lacking, human and feminine qualities become corrupted and manifest ugliness, ignorance, impotence and pride. It is not good for anything. However, when submitted, becomes exceedingly noble, wise and beautiful of traits and is useful for every good thing. Thus, the same kind of person can operate both as a crown of glory and decay in the bones (Proverbs 12:4).

In this context, the feminine qualities of seeking social cohesion can be extremely foolish, destructive (especially spiritually) and self-serving. However, when this quality is used in a surrendered woman, it will be conducive to peace, wisdom and God-honouring relationship as God defines these qualities in the Scripture (and important qualifier since many are wise in their own eyes and always proclaim their own goodness, even when the Scripture is explicitly against their actions).

So it is either a source of foolishness, or wisdom, weakness or strength, and ugliness or beauty. It is up to the woman to decide whether she is going to please God with her femininity or follow after the first lie of Satan that she can direct her own self.



This, when done truly, is a recipe for unrelenting victory (Romans 8:33-39), tearing down strongholds (2 Corinthians 10:4-5), and having a peace that surpasses all understanding (Philippians 4:4-7).



I can relate. That is, to being impressed by submission and wisdom rather than strength. And I have to beat the horse that never dies on this. This always come back to the mystery of Christ and the church, and what male and female was created as a distinction for. These is a reason that normally functioning, unpolluted women admire strength and largeness and why normally functioning, unpolluted men admire beauty and weakness (of a sort). Why is that?

Because man says to God "But I will sing of your strength; I will sing aloud of your steadfast love in the morning. For you have been to me a fortress and a refuge in the day of my distress." (Psalms 59:16) And "The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe." (Proverbs 18:10)

But to man God says "His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man, but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love." (Psalms 147:10-11)

We always have to come back to representation and headship to have insight into why men and women perceive and function the way they do, and the ways they ought to function and perceive. To stray from this is not wise.



Entirely contrary to culture and exactly right. A shame that what the Proverbs says is true: "An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain." (Proverbs 31:10-11)

It is difficult to sustain nobility when surrounded by foolishness. As aforementioned, I too know for women this is more so a vulnerable area due to innate desire for social cohesion. But I know in relying on God's strength, as you declare you do, it is possible. I also know from much experience that this is true: "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit." (James 5:16-18)

"And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." (1 John 5:14)

I am glad you noticed it, because it wasn't hidden or implied and is actually constituent to the biblical ontology of the genders and their union. The marriage of men and women is a mystery revealed in the relationship of Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:32). This is the very purpose that marriage serves, to emulate that union of humanity with our divine Lord. Is the church expected to submit to the Lord everything He desires? Yes. Is Jesus expected to give us everything we desire? No, and that is precisely why Jesus said to count the cost of following Him and why many won't.

For this same reason the wife is to "submit in everything to their husbands" (Ephesians 5:24) because "the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:23) And the husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church." (Ephesians 5:25) Notice its not as she, in her fallen state, wants him to love her, or how he, in his fallen state, wants to love her (perhaps by spoiling her and keeping the peace). Rather, he is to purify his masculinity in the full image of Christ and love her as Christ loved the church, which was to "sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:26-27)

So yes, the wife is expected to give the husband everything he desires if he is not commanding sin. Notice I didn't say except if he is committing sin, as 1 Peter 3 commands women who say they trust God to demonstrate it by submitting to their husbands even if they do not obey the Word. Why is it trusting God? Because God does not make mistakes. He made that man a man and that woman a woman and assigned roles ontologically, not by credentials. Therefore to submit to the husband is equivalent to the woman putting her hope in God and not fearing anything that is frightening (1 Peter 3:6). If she truly believes in God, then she will entrust her husband to his authority to correct the man where he is actually at fault and vindicate the man when he is in the right, rather than trying to commandeer the vessel when things appear to become unsettled, walking by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).

Again: "For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly." (1 Peter 2:21-23)

Because that’s the only thing it could mean right.

 

[Sam91]

I wasn't discussing my view on submission either, I was discussing what the Bible actually, clearly, explicitly says on enduring immense suffering and submission, which is a conjoined matter in this subject. Hence, biblical commands on submission and what that entails are immediately relevant to the OP of married women enduring suffering. How you failed to see that is bizarre. It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.

Isaiah 10:1-3
Luke 11:42
The Lord hates oppression.


Psalms 12:5 The Lord frees people from oppression. Surely, the church is to not have oppression within its midst?
If the Corinthians weren't to eat with slanderers or cheats, what about someone who abused the weak? 1 Corinthians 5:11

Proverbs 31:8-9 Is quite clear. In fact check out the Micah verse in my signature too. We are required to do justice and love kindness. Or are we to be like the religious folk in the parable of the good Samaritan?

Also, abusing someone is evil. In telling a spouse to submit to the abuser is saying to allow the abuser to continue in sin. It is allowing the abuser to further harden their heart and continue in unrepentant sin. That is not loving the abuser or the abused. Isaiah 5:20 !

There is a difference between being persecuted for His name and telling a child of God to suffer in vain. There is little chance of repentance unless she has faith in the Lord's protection and providence to leave the situation. It is robbing the abuser of the natural consequences of his sin, which may bring him to repentance.

It really is pitiful that the Church will act so mercilessly to a part of their body. The weaker parts are to be treated with more dignity and care.

Note that in the OT that if a slave was injured they were to be set free. Why not a wife, a person the substitute 'shepherds' ( Acts 20:28 ) are supposed to be overseeing, be protected? He bought them (abuser and abused) with His own blood.

To say that God hates divorce is not a justifiable answer to telling a wife to submit to abuse. It is folly. It is also a misrepresentation of the Lord God Almighty to the woman hearing that advice.

It is also a very bad witness to the gentiles living in the community too causing them to blaspheme His name.

 

[~Zao~]

History is filled with examples showing that when government power was centralized in one body or leader, that government always became a danger to the rights of individuals and brought that nation to ruin.

 

[Sam91]

I wasn't discussing my view on submission either, I was discussing what the Bible actually, clearly, explicitly says on enduring immense suffering and submission, which is a conjoined matter in this subject. Hence, biblical commands on submission and what that entails are immediately relevant to the OP of married women enduring suffering. How you failed to see that is bizarre. It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.

Also, having been in the situation of receiving abuse and living out Romans 12 (And yes, pretty much every verse), being strengthened daily when I had little strength by immersing myself in the Lord each night I very well know what I'm talking about. The violence escalated quickly, he ripped up a Bible in front of my children (thankfully they were protected from witnessing much) and could have killed me.

My faith grew during the 2.5 months of abuse and more so subsequently.

When I left, I know it was with the Lord's blessing. I saw scriptures touching me and coming to pass constantly over the following weeks and months and experienced his healing too. Now it is an almost distant memory, unless he contacts me at which point the Lord blesses me with the overriding instinct to pray for him and gives me peace that surpasses all understanding.

Now, if He required me to have stayed and submitted wouldn't I have received different things from the Lord?

 

[ChicanaRose]

It's equivalent to saying talking medicine is not relevant when asking for a cure. What you propose is like an aspirin for cancer, biblically speaking. Trusting in God and enduring suffering is the cure of the root spiritual problem of the human condition, not avoiding suffering and dissolving marriages, no matter how bad any number of meaningless human perspectives you can compile on the subject declare it to be.

Submission is not the right medicine for abuse.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Submission is not the right medicine for abuse.

The police and court system should be involved if the abuse is very bad.

 

[LoricaLady]

"King James Bible
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
"
So we see that those who try to tell women to put up with abuse are defending those - instead of the victims - who are shown to be in such a bad relationship with the Father that their prayers are hindered.

Abused women generally have children who are seeing, usually also experiencing, abuse. The Bible tell us not to provoke children to anger. How many children of abusive parents have been enraged by the abuse they saw a parent experiencing - not to mention being enraged by the abuse they experienced themselves?

Oh, wait. Let's take some Bible verses and twist them so that the women and the children are told they have to submit to abuse because of the probably sickly narcissistic, sociopathic or psychopathic "head of the household." If a woman is being beaten, threatened with murder and so on, such sick people will use any sophiatry laden words they can to defend their "right" to get their sadistic kicks out of doing the devil's work.

The woman is to submit to the husband as onto the LORD, not to the devil and his pawns with their demonic ways!

Let's see, if the man tells the woman to sell a child, or toss it out on the street, or not feed the child, should the woman just submit and do as he says? To some sick people, that's how it would go, and has gone.

Is a woman just supposed to let her children dwell in an environment where abuse is accepted and even being given phoney, twisted, convoluted, so called Biblical sanction? Of course not. When people push the false doctrine that women should just submit to abuse, well, I pray for their families and I would personally avoid them if they were in my life.

If anyone replies and wants to quote me some Bible verses that he or she thinks justifies women submitting to abuse, I will, frankly, consider you one whose prayers are hindered by the Father and not even worth a reply.

 

[LoricaLady]

Well, here I go again, with another thought after posting. Anyone who wants to say women should submit to their husband's abuse based on their interpretation of Scriptures, please answer the following questions. Now I am asking for actual, very short answers. My experience has been that such questions are generally evaded and a change of subject is offered as a kind of red herring (or so it seem to me) to avoid dealing with the questions.

Question 1. If a husband is threatening to kill the wife, and is beating her and the kids, should the wife just put up with it? Yes or no. Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 2. If a husband is sexually assaulting the children should the wife just stay in the house with the kids and let it continue because she is supposed to be "submissive" to even demonic activity? Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Hey, what if the Father decides to become a satanist (or may he already was, secretly, all along) and wants the wife and kids to bow down to the devil and participate in human sacrifice. Should the wife go along with that in order to be "Biblically" submissive to her husband? Yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Who really wants family members to be threatened, abused, even murdered? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just A or B will be fine.
Question 4. Who really wants children to be sexually assaulted? A. The devil or B. the Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.
Question 5. Who would like the mother to protect her children and herself from threats, abuse, murder and sexual assault? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.

Again, changes of subject with Bible quote interpretations will not be considered as addressing these issues.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Question 1. If a husband is threatening to kill the wife, and is beating her and the kids, should the wife just put up with it? Yes or no. Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 2. If a husband is sexually assaulting the children should the wife just stay in the house with the kids and let it continue because she is supposed to be "submissive" to even demonic activity? Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Hey, what if the Father decides to become a satanist (or may he already was, secretly, all along) and wants the wife and kids to bow down to the devil and participate in human sacrifice. Should the wife go along with that in order to be "Biblically" submissive to her husband? Yes or no will be fine.

No for the questions above.

 

[Yahkov]

The church - cover up abuses or tolerate rape? Never!!!

And this is exactly what I feel like the motive of this thread was in the first place: the church failing to act in situations like abuse. If the church doesn't act or covers up situations like abuse and rape, the church is being disobedient. Responding to disobedience with even further disobedience doesn't seem to be a good idea. Rather, a thread encouraging churches, Christians, pastors, and elders to respond to these situations in obedience to the Lord would seem a lot more beneficial.

The church covering these situations up is a problem. A very serious problem if that is what a particular church is doing. Do we now go to the law to fix improper church conduct? Where is this ever Biblical? When you read epistles like 1 and 2 Corinthians, you see the church in Corinth was all messed up in regards to proper church conduct. You can even take the example of the man who was sleeping with his father's wife (1 Corinthians 5). The church in Corinth was arrogant in the situation and it took Paul to do something about it. This situation of the man sleeping with his fathers wife should've been dealt with already, but it wasn't. Was Paul's advice ever for believers to stay away from the church in Corinth because they didn't act on this situation properly? Was his advice to go to the court to settle disputes before you go to the church in Corinth? It was exactly the opposite (1 Corinthians 6).

Encouraging people to do the direct opposite of what the Bible says to do is where I have a major issue. I get it, there are situations where this isn't always the option. If it's 3 in the morning and a man is beating up his wife, it would be wise to call the police.

I also get the one who is arguing submission in this thread. I am not 100% on board with this and the topic being discussed. Yes wives are called to submit, that is very clearly Biblical. But men are also called to love their wives. Treating your spouse with abuse is not love. With all that being said, there is still an issue that needs correcting.

 

[LoricaLady]

No for the questions above.

Well, of course I have seen that is how you feel. The questions are for anyone who comes along and tries to use the Bible to justify abusing wives and children.

 

[~Zao~]

And this is exactly what I feel like the motive of this thread was in the first place: the church failing to act in situations like abuse. If the church doesn't act or covers up situations like abuse and rape, the church is being disobedient. Responding to disobedience with even further disobedience doesn't seem to be a good idea. Rather, a thread encouraging churches, Christians, pastors, and elders to respond to these situations in obedience to the Lord would seem a lot more beneficial.

The church covering these situations up is a problem. A very serious problem if that is what a particular church is doing. Do we now go to the law to fix improper church conduct? Where is this ever Biblical? When you read epistles like 1 and 2 Corinthians, you see the church in Corinth was all messed up in regards to proper church conduct. You can even take the example of the man who was sleeping with his father's wife (1 Corinthians 5). The church in Corinth was arrogant in the situation and it took Paul to do something about it. This situation of the man sleeping with his fathers wife should've been dealt with already, but it wasn't. Was Paul's advice ever for believers to stay away from the church in Corinth because they didn't act on this situation properly? Was his advice to go to the court to settle disputes before you go to the church in Corinth? It was exactly the opposite (1 Corinthians 6).

Encouraging people to do the direct opposite of what the Bible says to do is where I have a major issue. I get it, there are situations where this isn't always the option. If it's 3 in the morning and a man is beating up his wife, it would be wise to call the police.

I also get the one who is arguing submission in this thread. I am not 100% on board with this. Yes wives are called to submit. But men are also called to love their wives. Treating your spouse with abuse is not love. With all that being said, there is still an issue that needs correcting.

Your comparing someone living in a sexual relationship to abused persons being told to suck it up? Still wrong to say put up and shut up if the church isn’t working for your help in times of need. Jesus, Himself, was placed outside the camp, so maybe that is where we should really be going. Nothing personal, but don’t defend that which is the cause. Staying silent is what the problem IS>

 

[LoricaLady]

Well, here I go again, with another thought after posting. Anyone who wants to say women should submit to their husband's abuse based on their interpretation of Scriptures, please answer the following questions. Now I am asking for actual, very short answers. My experience has been that such questions are generally evaded and a change of subject is offered as a kind of red herring (or so it seem to me) to avoid dealing with the questions.

Question 1. If a husband is threatening to kill the wife, and is beating her and the kids, should the wife just put up with it? Yes or no. Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 2. If a husband is sexually assaulting the children should the wife just stay in the house with the kids and let it continue because she is supposed to be "submissive" to even demonic activity? Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Hey, what if the Father decides to become a satanist (or may he already was, secretly, all along) and wants the wife and kids to bow down to the devil and participate in human sacrifice. Should the wife go along with that in order to be "Biblically" submissive to her husband? Yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Who really wants family members to be threatened, abused, even murdered? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just A or B will be fine.
Question 4. Who really wants children to be sexually assaulted? A. The devil or B. the Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.
Question 5. Who would like the mother to protect her children and herself from threats, abuse, murder and sexual assault? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.

Again, changes of subject with Bible quote interpretations will not be considered as addressing these issues.

I don't personally see any conflict or reason to be confused in the submission area. Wives are told to submit "as to the Lord." The Lord is not going to ask anyone to submit herself, or her child, to abuse. The devil does that, though!

 

[Yahkov]

Your comparing someone living in a sexual relationship to abused women being told to suck it up? Still wrong to say put up and shut up if the church isn’t working for your help in times of need. Jesus, Himself, was placed outside the camp, so maybe that is where we should really be going. Nothing personal, but don’t defend that which is the cause. Staying silent is what the problem IS>

If you read my entire comment you would clearly see I am not saying the church should stay silent or cover these situations up. And if they are doing that, that's a problem that must be fixed within the church.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, here I go again, with another thought after posting. Anyone who wants to say women should submit to their husband's abuse based on their interpretation of Scriptures, please answer the following questions. Now I am asking for actual, very short answers. My experience has been that such questions are generally evaded and a change of subject is offered as a kind of red herring (or so it seem to me) to avoid dealing with the questions.

Question 1. If a husband is threatening to kill the wife, and is beating her and the kids, should the wife just put up with it? Yes or no. Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 2. If a husband is sexually assaulting the children should the wife just stay in the house with the kids and let it continue because she is supposed to be "submissive" to even demonic activity? Just yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Hey, what if the Father decides to become a satanist (or may he already was, secretly, all along) and wants the wife and kids to bow down to the devil and participate in human sacrifice. Should the wife go along with that in order to be "Biblically" submissive to her husband? Yes or no will be fine.
Question 3. Who really wants family members to be threatened, abused, even murdered? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just A or B will be fine.
Question 4. Who really wants children to be sexually assaulted? A. The devil or B. the Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.
Question 5. Who would like the mother to protect her children and herself from threats, abuse, murder and sexual assault? A. The devil or B. The Heavenly Father? Just answering A or B will be fine.

Again, changes of subject with Bible quote interpretations will not be considered as addressing these issues.

These women should be talking to police and getting restraining orders.

It’s ludacris to take such unGodly marriages full of such sin and problems and think that there is going to be a Godly solution.

Biblical solutions are for those who obey and fear God.

 

[~Zao~]

If you read my entire comment you would clearly see I am not saying the church should stay silent or cover these situations up. And if they are doing that, that's a problem that must be fixed within the church.

I did read it and I stand by my comment.

 

[Yahkov]

These women should be talking to police and getting restraining orders.

It’s ludacris to take such unGodly marriages full of such sin and problems and think that there is going to be a Godly solution.

Biblical solutions are for those who obey and fear God.

What!? Haven't we all lived in lives that are full of sin and problems? Makes you wonder if you are correct, why did we even become Christians in the first place? Of course there is a Godly solution to sin and problems. Even in marriage, designed literally by God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't personally see any conflict or reason to be confused in the submission area. Wives are told to submit "as to the Lord." The Lord is not going to ask anyone to submit herself, or her child, to abuse. The devil does that, though!

The problem is just as related to people who do not live Godly lives and seek intervention at an early point when an issue presents itself.

Your bringing up worse case scenarios, which seems like you feel the church should ‘fix’ ungodly people who don’t obey God at all anyways.

 

[~Zao~]

These women should be talking to police and getting restraining orders.

It’s ludacris to take such unGodly marriages full of such sin and problems and think that there is going to be a Godly solution.

Biblical solutions are for those who obey and fear God.

Biblical solution is being spiritual minded so as to not align oneself with that which is evil and think it’s right.

 

[~Zao~]

^^ That’s really the sin is the church’s failure to teach. 2000 yrs and still no meat.