Why I don't recommend abused women seek help from pastors or the church

[~Zao~]

Shake your head all you want. It is exactly like advice is being given that doesn't reflect Scripture on a Christian forum. Part of the OP I can agree with under very specific circumstances. But this "give up on the church, church can't help you" idea, not a fan of.

I really don’t want to get into scripture with you except to say you have no standing for that.

 

[~Zao~]

Arguing your precepts to disregard principles is what I shake my head at.

 

[Yahkov]

I really don’t want to get into scripture with you except to say you have no standing for that.

I'd imagine you wouldn't want to. You haven't shared Scripture once. Now you want to make bold statements that I don't stand for Scripture yet say you don't want to get into Scripture with me? That's really convenient.

 

[LoricaLady]

It's not that I trust the church to turn someone like this around, but I trust God can do such a feat. Of whom, the church should stand as ambassadors for. And who is it that has done all of this? I would find it very hard to believe that a believer would even do all of that in the first place. Or is this an extremely rare and hypothetical case?

If you want to ask me how many people like this God has changed, well I am sure you know there are numerous.

Yes, there are innumerable people who been transformed through help in the Church. In all kinds of ways. But we are not talking about all kinds of ways. We are talking specifically about domestic abusers. Yes, the Lord can certainly turn such people around. As I said in a post above, I don't think that those kinds of people are helped with "Let me advise you", though, but through the approach Messiah used and directed His followers to take. In fact domestic abusers generally sneer at the "Let's talk about your issues and pray" way.

Again, I ask you, pertinent to this topic, how many cases have you seen where domestic abusers were turned around and became saints? One? In the meantime, if a woman hasn't seen any such transformations happening around her Church - and domestic abuse is rather rampant - then why shouldn't she go to the police and get documentation and protection? Rhetorical Q.

 

[Yahkov]

Arguing your precepts to disregard principles is what I shake my head at.

You say you don't want to argue Scripture with me, you have not once backed your stance with Scripture, you share your perception and argue with that yet accuse me of doing such, and you shake your head? I have no further discussion with you.

 

[Cimorene]

I can't explain how horrified I was when this pervert pretending to be a nice Christian grandpa tried to say that a young, super innocent victim of incest had to confront her abusers. He hadn't abused me. He'd "befriended" another teenage girl I was friendly w & had wanted me to convince her to talk to him again after she cut him off. She'd been telling him about severe & repeated incest. He asked her if she enjoyed it!!!!!!!!!!

It was obv he was getting off on her telling him about all this! I feel like he took a part of my own innocence by even telling me all that he did. I can't even imagine what it was like for the real victim. I asked him why he didn't urge her to go to the police & he got up on a soapbox and quoted scripture. He was trying to gaslight me. Saying this girl was supposed to confront her dad about it. Then go tell her church when the church was a tiny one just for the family. I literally threw up bc I was so disgusted by him. My mom notified the police.

Victims of abuse need to seek proper help, not confront their abusers.

 

[Yahkov]

Yes, there are innumerable people who been transformed through help in the Church. In all kinds of ways. But we are not talking about all kinds of ways. We are talking specifically about domestic abusers. Yes, the Lord can certainly turn such people around. As I said in a post above, I don't think that those kinds of people are helped with "Let me advise you", though, but through the approach Messiah used and directed His followers to take. In fact domestic abusers generally sneer at "The let's talk and pray" way.

Again, I ask you, pertinent to this topic, how many cases have you seen where domestic abusers were turned around and become saints? One? In the meantime, if a woman hasn't seen any such transformations happening around her Church - and domestic abuse is rather rampant - then why shouldn't she go to the police and get documentation and protection? Rhetorical Q.

What was the approach the Messiah used and directed His followers to take? Serious question, I'd like to start with that. This is what I am desperately interested in regarding the topic and I argue my stance from 1 Corinthians 6.

Off of the top of my head, I can give you one name. My dad. He abused my mom for many years, abused my older sister, my older brother and myself. My sister, bravest woman I have ever known, would throw herself between me and my dad so he would hit her instead. My dad was in and out of jail for it. Once he was out of jail, the abuse would intensify. I don't argue from this stance, that since my dad changed everyone like him will change. I know the church won't always solve the problem, but church (if the one conducting domestic abuse is a believer), is the first step, Biblically. My experience is not my argument, 1 Corinthians is my stance on this issue.

It took God to change his heart. It took a deep regard for the Lord and believers surrounding him (myself when I got older, my dads brother, in some capacities even my mother) to change his ways. I can attest, court temporarily fixed the problem. It removed him from the equation for short periods of time. God changed his ways, humbled his heart, and put an end to the abuse.

We can go deeper and argue Paul. Not really fitting within the domestic abuse category, but a murderer nonetheless. God changed his heart so amazingly that we adhere to a lot of the epistles he wrote. I argue from my stance from one of them.

 

[~Zao~]

I'd imagine you wouldn't want to. You haven't shared Scripture once. Now you want to make bold statements that I don't stand for Scripture yet say you don't want to get into Scripture with me? That's really convenient.

I never said you don’t stand for scripture but you cannot have a dictatorship within any setting ( women are not being treated right because of scripture other than church administration) and say there is no way of escape provided for those suffering at this moment?

 

[LoricaLady]

What was the approach the Messiah used and directed His followers to take? Serious question, I'd like to start with that. This is what I am desperately interested in regarding the topic and I argue my stance from 1 Corinthians 6.

Look at the some of the posts early on where people say that when abuse was reported in the Church that they saw the "old boys" joining together, pooh poohing the abuse, or saying to put up with it, and so on.

Not everyone in Church, even Pastors, are saints! Your post does not acknowledge that but seems to take the stance that we should assume they are. Heck no.

The saints being referred to in that Biblical passage btw, were heeding the advice of Messiah, not mainstream pop psychology under a roof with a cross on top. What did HE say to do?
Matthew 10:18
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!

He also spoke of laying hand on the sick with believers praying over them. Now, that does happen in some Churches, though not commonly. And it is tricky because you don't really know if those laying hand on you are the right kind - at least not always.

As for the rest of the instructions that Messiah gave, which those saints you referenced took totally seriously, how many Churches even address those words of His? In the past I have been in many Churches and don't remember a single one of them saying something like, 'That's what we should be doing! Let's pray to be followers of Messiah like the early Church believers were and work miracles!" Much less were they doing any such things.

Decreased brain cortex, just like other physical problems, will not be healed by Pastorly counseling. It needs divine intervention. Frankly, it needs a miracle. I believe the Church needs to be studying and teaching, and doing miracles. Miracles are still going on. There are many documented medical cases and if you want just a few, I'd be happy to share. There are even documented cases of people being raised from prolonged death to full health. I can give you some data on them, too, if you wish.

Again, domestic abusers need literal miracles, not counseling sessions which, if they go at all which isn't real likely, they won't take a bit seriously.

 

[Sam91]

What was the approach the Messiah used and directed His followers to take? Serious question, I'd like to start with that. This is what I am desperately interested in regarding the topic and I argue my stance from 1 Corinthians 6.

I'd argue from another part of 1 Corinthians that the Church should not associate with the abuser. From where it says they should not eat with slanderers, swindlers, the sexually immoral etc.

They should protect the innocent party by making sure they prayed together and minister to there spiritual needs, ensuring that all measures were taken to prevent further danger.

There is a problem though with regards to supporting the abuser. If he is repentant they ought to pray for 'him' (or her, of course) and work with them. However, those who have abusive personalities (rather than those who have behaved out of character) are likely to have fixations, and be willing to say or do anything without meaning it just to get chance to manipulate, intimidate or regain the power they had before. I'm all for supporting the abuser but it is naive to think the victim would be truly safe if done within the same church community.

 

[Yahkov]

Look at the some of the posts early on where people say that when abuse was reported in the Church that they saw the "old boys" joining together, pooh poohing the abuse, or saying to put up with it, and so on.

Not everyone in Church, even Pastors, are saints! Your post does not acknowledge that but seems to take the stance that we should assume they are. Heck no.

The saints being referred to in that Biblical passage btw, were heeding the advice of Messiah, not mainstream pop psycholgoy under a roof with a cross on top. What did HE say to do?
Matthew 10:18
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!

He also spoke of laying hand on the sick with believers praying over them. Now, that does happen in some Churches, though not commonly. And it is tricky because you don't really know if those laying hand on you are the right kind - at least not always.

As for the rest of the instructions that Messiah gave, which those saints you referrrenced took totally seriously, how many Churches even address those words of His? I have been in many Churches and don't remember a single one of them saying something like, 'That's what we should be doing! Let's pray to be followers of Messiah like the early Church believers were". Much less were they doing any such things.

Decreased brain cortex, just like other physical problems, will not be healed by Pastorly counseling. It needs divine intervention. Frankly, it needs a miracle. I believe the Church needs to be studying and teaching, and doing miracles. Miracles are still going on. There are many documented medical cases and if you want just a few, I'd be happy to share. There are even documentd cases of people being raised from prolonged death to full health. I can give you some data on them, too, if you wish.

Again, domestic abusers need literal miracles, not counseling sessions which, if they go at all which isn't real likely, they won't take a bit seriously.

This does not accurately reflect what I said. I never said that we assume the church or pastors were full of saints. The church in Corinth was most certainly not and Paul had to desperately change a lot of the bad stuff they were doing, ranging from getting drunk during the bread and wine partaking, being immensely divided in thought ("I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of Peter"), taking arrogant action on a fellow congregator who was sleeping with his fathers wife, and even them going to the court to settle issues before they would even settle it amongst themselves. These were all problems the church in Corinth was experiencing and Paul presented the solution.

Did Paul ever once go to the Romans to fix matters of the church? Did he ever go to the Jewish religious authorities to settle disputes? Not from what I recall. So why are we encouraging others here to do the direct opposite? This thread should be a call to fix the church not doing anything in these situations. Not a thread to discourage others that they can't find help in the church. Which is I say again, we are acting just like the church in Corinth in this regard.

 

[LoricaLady]

What was the approach the Messiah used and directed His followers to take? Serious question, I'd like to start with that. This is what I am desperately interested in regarding the topic and I argue my stance from 1 Corinthians 6.

Off of the top of my head, I can give you one name. My dad. He abused my mom for many years, abused my older sister, my older brother and myself. My sister, bravest woman I have ever known, would throw herself between me and my dad so he would hit her instead. My dad was in and out of jail for it. Once he was out of jail, the abuse would intensify. I don't argue from this stance, that since my dad changed everyone like him will change. I know the church won't always solve the problem, but church (if the one conducting domestic abuse is a believer), is the first step, Biblically. My experience is not my argument, 1 Corinthians is my stance on this issue.

It took God to change his heart. It took a deep regard for the Lord and believers surrounding him (myself when I got older, my dads brother, in some capacities even my mother) to change his ways. I can attest, court temporarily fixed the problem. It removed him from the equation for short periods of time. God changed his ways, humbled his heart, and put an end to the abuse.

We can go deeper and argue Paul. Not really fitting within the domestic abuse category, but a murderer nonetheless. God changed his heart so amazingly that we adhere to a lot of the epistles he wrote. I argue from my stance from one of them.

P.S. Oh yes, Paul did get his murderous heart healed. Was it through Pastorly counseling? No. It was through a miracle.

I must leave this string until at least tomorrow to do other things. However, before I go I will give some examples of miracles happening per our Savior's instructions. While I'm at it, there is some info at the end about a miracle seen through the Shroud of Turin (which is where my icon comes from.) Miracles are still going on but much more needed!

A new book called Physicians' Untold Stories lists many doctors' reports about divine intervention they have seen in their practice. In one case a woman who had not walked for years, and who was on her death bed from multiple sclerosis. was prayed over. Suddenly the Almighty told her to "Get up and walk." That she did, with the sudden appearance of new muscles in her legs. She is now leading a completely normal, healthy, life.
And there is much more...

Now in the Bible we are told of a Man Who believed in Adam and Eve and Noah as being actual, historical figures. The Bible says He did miracles and raised the dead and healed the sick. He multiplied food out of nothing. He said we could do even greater things than He did. The Bible also describes His death and burial. Is there any actual scientific data to support those stories?

See secular news reports about Val Thomas, dead for 17 hours but now alive and normal after prayers from her family and her Church.

.

From mainstream t.v. there used to be a vid called Medical Marvel Beyond Chance, from a secular source, with a pediatrician giving his report. this one attesting to a dying child's healing which cannot be explained by modern medicine, and came after a relative laid hands on her and prayed for her. The doctor can be seen reporting that the DNA in every cell in her body was changed. The vid has been deleted, though.

See CBN's short vid with Dean Braxton. You'll hear his critical care doctor, rated the best patient care doctor in Washington state, saying "It is a miracle...a miracle..." that Braxton is alive, has no brain damage and is normal in every way. Why? He had no heart beat and no respiration for 1 3/4 hours! His family believed in divine healing and they and others were praying for him.

. Also see CBN Dr. Chauncey Crandall Raises A Man From The Dead.

Part 1. This video is a bit faded but has the most complete information on this story.

Get Dr. Richard Casdorph's book The Miracles. There he gives medical documentation for miracles, mostly, but not all, from Kathryn Kuhlman's healing services. Casdorph came to Kuhlman's meetings to debunk her but turned into a supporter, as did other doctors. You can see him and other doctors in some of her healing services on YT. (She is now deceased.) Delores Winder is one of the cases documented in his book. You can watch her amazing story on YT with Sid Roth.

The book The Audacity of Prayer by Don Nordin lists medically documented miracles.


On Andrew Wommack's vids you can see doctors talking about "miracles" too. At the end of the book Don't Limit God you see a medical statement by a doctor saying that his patient used to have M.S. and diabetes but is now cured.

Bruce Van Natta was in a horrific accident where he lost about 80% of his small intestine. Someone he didn't even know was told to get on a plane and lay hands on him and pray for him. His small intestines grew back competely and you can see his doctors testifying to that.

Here we see many witnesses reporting donated food being miraculously multiplied for people who lived in a dump in Juarez. Story of Christmas 1972

And btw do you think that Someone Who can raise the dead and heal people of deadly "incurable" diseases, Someone Who can make body parts and food out of nothing, Someone Who created time, space, matter, and energy - needed "evolution" to make life forms? No, He created them fully formed and fully functional in 6 days just as Genesis, a Book He always supported, tells you.

Then there is the Shroud of Turin. If you don't know, the Shroud is a blood stained linen burial shroud with the faint image of a crucified man on it. If you have heard that the Shroud was proven to be a Medieval fake based on carbon 14 testing, in the documentary Jesus And The Shroud of Turin you can see the very inventor of carbon 14 testing saying that the sample was invalid due to contamination. That vid is now only available (under $2.00) on Amazon in VHS format.
The vid demonstrates many miraculous features such as pollen from Jerusalem and faint images of flowers that are found only in the Jerusalem area during the spring, as at Passover when Messiah was crucified. With modern technology we also see that the Shroud has an x ray quality which reveals the bones and dentition of the Man on the Shroud.

There are many other vids on the Shroud, with scientific data, and here is just one:
Shroud of Turin Tim Rogers

In the 70s a NASA scientist noticed the Shroud's photographs had inexplicable, unique in the world, qualities. He got up a team of scientists, called STURP, to examine it in person in Italy. (No, the Shroud is not "just a Catholic thing" as the Vatican only came into stewardship of it fairly recently in history.) They used NASA, and other, high tech equipment with 100s of thousands of hours of research. Their findings are seen all over the net and were published in respected science journals.


The team was composed of 3 Jews, at least one agnostic and one atheist, and people of various faiths. They all agreed on these things: The Shroud image was not painted on, and they have no clue how it got there. It exactly matches, down to blood stains where a crown of thorns would be, the description of Messiah's death and burial as given in the Bible. The image could not be duplicated with modern technology.


About the Shroud I say "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, maybe it's a duck."

 

[Sam91]

I'd argue from another part of 1 Corinthians that the Church should not associate with the abuser. From where it says they should not eat with slanderers, swindlers, the sexually immoral etc.

They should protect the innocent party by making sure they prayed together and minister to there spiritual needs, ensuring that all measures were taken to prevent further danger.

There is a problem though with regards to supporting the abuser. If he is repentant they ought to pray for 'him' (or her, of course) and work with them. However, those who have abusive personalities (rather than those who have behaved out of character) are likely to have fixations, and be willing to say or do anything without meaning it just to get chance to manipulate, intimidate or regain the power they had before. I'm all for supporting the abuser but it is naive to think the victim would be truly safe if done within the same church community.

In addition to the 1 Corinthians, I'd also point to Christ's messages to the churches in Revelation 2:2

I'd also refer to Ephesians 5:3-12. Although it does not say abuse, I think greed covers it. It's still being hungry for power and self.

Also, where Peter says to live perfect lives in front of the gentiles. 1 Peter 2:12

 

[LoricaLady]

This does not accurately reflect what I said. I never said that we assume the church or pastors were full of saints. The church in Corinth was most certainly not and Paul had to desperately change a lot of the bad stuff they were doing, ranging from getting drunk during the bread and wine partaking, being immensely divided in thought ("I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of Peter"), taking arrogant action on a fellow congregator who was sleeping with his fathers wife, and even them going to the court to settle issues before they would even settle it amongst themselves. These were all problems the church in Corinth was experiencing and Paul presented the solution.

Did Paul ever once go to the Romans to fix matters of the church? Did he ever go to the Jewish religious authorities to settle disputes? Not from what I recall. So why are we encouraging others here to do the direct opposite? This thread should be a call to fix the church not doing anything in these situations. Not a thread to discourage others that they can't find help in the church. Which is I say again, we are acting just like the church in Corinth in this regard.

If you can find some Paul types in the Church, if you can find some true believers who are doing miracles in the Church, as the early believers did,go for it.

I haven't seen any such, though I have heard of them here and there. I am not saying I have only seen worthless Churches. No, they are often helping many people in many ways.
However, I certainly haven't seen any who could heal someone with decreased brain cortex, or even a hangnail. To be honest, I have, though, seen big, splashy, or small, Laodicean Churches where the "believers" didn't seem to really be living much, if at all,differently than the world.
Sorry. But, again, if you find someone doing miracles like Paul, listen to him!

 

[LoricaLady]

P.S. Maybe you can become someone like that yourself. It's a thought.

 

[LoricaLady]

ANYONE: I have said over and over that I am going to leave this string due to time constraints, but I never did. It has been very interesting, but I really, really, need to leave this time. I don't have anything new to say anyway. If you disagree with anything I said, okay, fine, you get the last word here on that. Blessings to you and yours as I have prayed and bye.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I can't explain how horrified I was when this pervert pretending to be a nice Christian grandpa tried to say that a young, super innocent victim of incest had to confront her abusers. He hadn't abused me. He'd "befriended" another teenage girl I was friendly w & had wanted me to convince her to talk to him again after she cut him off. She'd been telling him about severe & repeated incest. He asked her if she enjoyed it!!!!!!!!!!

It was obv he was getting off on her telling him about all this! I feel like he took a part of my own innocence by even telling me all that he did. I can't even imagine what it was like for the real victim. I asked him why he didn't urge her to go to the police & he got up on a soapbox and quoted scripture. He was trying to gaslight me. Saying this girl was supposed to confront her dad about it. Then go tell her church when the church was a tiny one just for the family. I literally threw up bc I was so disgusted by him. My mom notified the police.

Victims of abuse need to seek proper help, not confront their abusers.

I'm not saying it's wrong to notify police or that this guy was right.. but anytime you go to the police and report a crime like rape or incest, in order to prosecute the perpetrator the victim has to take the stand and face the accused..

This is the most difficult aspect of rape prosecution.. taking the stand and facing the perpetrator of the crime.

It's best that happens with police and lawyers around though.. for safeties sake.

 

[Endeavourer]

And this is exactly what I feel like the motive of this thread was in the first place: the church failing to act in situations like abuse. If the church doesn't act or covers up situations like abuse and rape, the church is being disobedient. Responding to disobedience with even further disobedience doesn't seem to be a good idea. Rather, a thread encouraging churches, Christians, pastors, and elders to respond to these situations in obedience to the Lord would seem a lot more beneficial.

Yakhov, idealistically, you are absolutely right. I was that idealistic initially as well.

The reason I no longer recomment a woman go to her pastor is because many pastors will put the burden on the woman to submit better so her marriage will be better. If her marriage doesn't improve, she may be accused of gossiping about her husband when she reports back to the pastor that her greater submission made things worse. Finally, many churches put women into discipline for not submitting to her authority when her husbands abuse doesn't stop.

Here are a few stories for you to read. Unfortunately, this is frequent occurrence in complimentarian churches - sometimes I even wonder if it's the norm:

Story #1, from Laura:

Even after over 20 years of living with a verbally and emotionally abusive man, the involvement of the church was the single most tramatic experience of my life. I trusted that they would help me but from the onset when they told me “You won’t love him but you will be taking him back,” all of their actions were designed to lay guilt on me to force that end result.

Concern for one of my sons, who was mimicking his father’s actions, led me to call the church.
At the pastor’s request, I documented five typewritten pages of incidents of my husband’s abuse . Included was his reckless driving with children in the car, assaulting a man at another church, screaming at and threatening me regularly, encouraging our son to call me profane names, etc. I thought that at least one of these events would cause them to question my husband’s right to membership in the PCA.

The pastor took my husband to lunch but other than that, did nothing. After 10 months, I discovered that my husband had a secret two-year relationship with a former co-worker.

When I informed the church that I now wanted to pursue divorce, I was told to take back the unfaithful spouse like Hosea. Also I needed to win my husband over… I might be triggering him. I was told that there are always two people to blame for marriage issues. I was questioned about idols in my heart by their counselor which cost me $1100 for her involvement while my husband was never directly confronted with his sin. He was not repentant and threatened me, saying that he wanted to see me dead and he wanted to find a way to kill me without getting caught. I spent almost two years trying to be submissive to the church as they did all that they could to penetrate the bondaries I set up to protect my family. I was so distraught and confused at that point — afraid for our safety but wanting to please the Lord and respect the church. I wondered why I viewed scripture so differently than they did — was I even a Christian? They offered no spiritual guidance — it was like a spiritual desert. Thankfully, the Lord himself held me up.

After one and a half years of dealing with the church’s lack of direction, my health began to break down due to stress. I went to the local abuse center and they listened to me advising me that I was in a dangerous situation. Finally, I notified the pastor that I was leaving his church. On the way out, his children chided my daughter with ‘God hates divorce’. The pastor told me that my conscience would bother me if I filed for divorce and I received a letter saying that God was not pleased with me. I saved all of the letters that I received from the church and now can’t believe how abusive they themselves were. They were a terrible witness for my extended family and friends, as some of them have told me this is why they don’t go to church. Sadly, at this point I would recommend that anyone in an abusive relationship not go to the church but to the abuse crisis center. Even Dr. Phil gives more useful advice. I am praying that your work will be the catalyst for reform in the church before the church becomes completely obsolete on this subject. Thank you, again. You are a blessing!​

Story #2:

Laura, your story sounds so close to mine in different places, that I wondered if I had written it and forgotten that I had. The abuse I have encountered from my Church is very similar and they are Presbyterian too. I believe, that some of this thinking that says, “stay together, not until death, but even if it means death to you”, comes from nouthetic counseling which is all the rage in the Presbyterian Churches today, as well as others. It places equal blame on husband and wife, and that is exactly what they do–get you to focus on your sin or guilt, so you can see that you are to blame for the abuse and what your husband is doing to you! They believe that all sin is equal, so there is nothing that the abuser has done, that is any worse than what you have done. Also, the dynamics of what some [churches believe] are; anyone and everyone who has been baptized is a Christian, so the Scriptures about leaving cannot apply to you, because he is a Christian; he is baptized and a member of the Church, so they cannot discipline him as an unbeliever; he is repentant and forgiven, just like you!; and (I really love this one) remember, 70 x7, and even if you die trying to win him or just staying with him, it was God’s will for you! I just got lost in the confusion of all the twisting of Scripture, and soon found myself in a heap, thinking the same as you, “Am I really a Christian? What is wrong with me?”
​

Story #3:

Laura, I am so sorry for what you have gone through, but know that you are not alone. There are probably many of us out here. Yes, I say, “us” as I, too, have experienced what you describe. In every situation where I tried to get help, my husband skillfully sidetracked issues, twisted facts, and convinced leaders I was the problem. They just automatically believed his word over mine. It all started when, like you, I followed the advice of a Christian counselor-author who wrote, “If husband refuses to listen to your presented concerns, you may need to provide some examples …” so since unapproachability was one of the destructive patterns in our relationship, I begun documenting the unresolved situations as they arose and were left undone. I thought surely at the right time God will be able to use this as a tool to help open husband’s eyes to his abuses. But, when the time came that I presented the collected examples (one night after yet another destructive scenario), he threw them down and accused me of “keeping a record of wrongs.“ With my approval he contacted a counseling couple as I knew we needed one and thought surely they would come to my aid. Not. His manipulation was bought hook line and sinker and the idea that I had actually practiced love by providing husband concrete evidence for the concerns brought forth was totally rejected. Instead, they agreed I had violated 1 Cor. 13. Husband made it seem as though I had intended to bring the “list” for them to read. It was never brought as that was not its purpose. The documentation was intended only for him. He chose to misrepresent this truth and created for them the impression I was an angry, critical, and unforgiving wife … This was the beginning of my realization of what a con-man I was married to. Cold and calculating. It was also the beginning of the dismaying spiritual abuse (misuse of scripture, favoritism, and other such confusions) I would experience from leaders.

Because he got away with his manipulation, his destructiveness was only enabled all the more. His entitlement spirit increased and he went deeper in to sin. Eventually, I discovered him viewing inappropriate content as well, and he claimed it was an isolated incident… His blame-shifting attitude, however, spoke the opposite. So when I went to seek third party help again (this time with our church elders), I heard things like: “You are pushing your husband away….” (me ….pushing him??)…. “You need to trust him…” (I had requested access to his credit card statements, but he refused to allow me to see them…??? ) … To that, the elders said it was the husband’s perogative as head and financial leader to determine whether or not his wife should have access to account information…. ??? I could not believe the things I was hearing. They claimed my struggle to trust husband’s word was indicative of an unforgiving spirit…. Sigh…. On and on it went. When I tried to dialogue with them about the growing confusions, they refused to…. and told me I could not ask questions. They accused me of borderline heresy because I viewed trust as being separate from forgiveness. They said I was wrong for believing in a need to see fruit of repentence. They said I had an “inordinant desire to be understood” because I was struggling with all that was unfolding rather than just accepting their guidance… These are just a few examples of what I experienced…

Thankfully, the Lord gave me the conviction and courage to eventually step away from that church. I did so not in anger but with a private respectful letter to the elders clarifying the confusions, oppression, and inconsistencies encountered. They never sought to reply or show any concern for my shaken confidence in them. I thought I was going to a safer church because I moved to one that hosts the ministry, “Mending the Soul” by Steven Tracy, (a great ministry btw!) but when husband soon followed to this church too and the former elders decided to get in touch with the leadership “to brief them about us…” …everything started coming back around full circle. It is unbelievable that this could be happening even in a church where abuse is supposed to be understood and recognized as reality….. Just like before, though, my questions about confusions are being ignored and I am being treated as though my husband’s word has greater weight. If I did not have the Lord to lean on right now and the MTS ladies group (as well as another online group), I would be totally undone.​

Yakhov, I could give you 1,000's more. Consult some resources for abused women and you'll see story after story with this pattern. If this is pattern of "care" is so recurrent with a fragile, long abused woman who has finally dared to seek help, would you continue sending women marching into this likely chainsaw?

Ideally, we could all rise up and say AMEN to every word you've written. Experience has proven otherwise. That is the reason for the thread.

 

[Paidiske]

If the church doesn't act or covers up situations like abuse and rape, the church is being disobedient. Responding to disobedience with even further disobedience doesn't seem to be a good idea. Rather, a thread encouraging churches, Christians, pastors, and elders to respond to these situations in obedience to the Lord would seem a lot more beneficial.

It is clear that people believe the church isn't doing what it should be doing in handling situations like abuse. That is an obvious problem. So the advice given is to not go to the church anymore for these situations? That's not how you fix a problem. Do we encourage every church everywhere to now tell people in abusive relationships, "sorry there is nothing I can do for you, go to the police. It's the new status quo." We have now become just like the church in Corinth.

You don't fix a broken bridge by insisting on walking over it. Yes, the church needs to build a healthier culture on these matters. In the meantime, until/unless it does, encouraging traumatised people to put themselves in an unsafe position doesn't actually do anything to fix the problem.

And by the way, this thread has highlighted that pastors are not trained to work with people who have been abused; we have even less training to work with people who are abusers. I really have no skill or knowledge about how to minister well with perpetrators. I would be referring them on to a specialist (outside the church) as fast as I possibly could.

 

[LoricaLady]

What was the approach the Messiah used and directed His followers to take? Serious question, I'd like to start with that. This is what I am desperately interested in regarding the topic and I argue my stance from 1 Corinthians 6.

Off of the top of my head, I can give you one name. My dad. He abused my mom for many years, abused my older sister, my older brother and myself. My sister, bravest woman I have ever known, would throw herself between me and my dad so he would hit her instead. My dad was in and out of jail for it. Once he was out of jail, the abuse would intensify. I don't argue from this stance, that since my dad changed everyone like him will change. I know the church won't always solve the problem, but church (if the one conducting domestic abuse is a believer), is the first step, Biblically. My experience is not my argument, 1 Corinthians is my stance on this issue.

It took God to change his heart. It took a deep regard for the Lord and believers surrounding him (myself when I got older, my dads brother, in some capacities even my mother) to change his ways. I can attest, court temporarily fixed the problem. It removed him from the equation for short periods of time. God changed his ways, humbled his heart, and put an end to the abuse.

We can go deeper and argue Paul. Not really fitting within the domestic abuse category, but a murderer nonetheless. God changed his heart so amazingly that we adhere to a lot of the epistles he wrote. I argue from my stance from one of them.

Sorry that I neglected to respond to this post. That is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing it. It provides hope. I assume your story is one reason why you have taken the stance that you have. I pray you and all your family are truly healed from the trauma.

However, that is just one story. Endeavor above says he can give thousands of other stories that go in the opposite direction. Others here, besides Endeavor, have given horror stories of Church intervention too. Now, to tell the whole story, one poster, who works with abusers, early on did say she saw some abusers being transformed by the Lord but did not give any details or hint at how many, what percentage, was turned around.

One way or another, what is wrong with the Church (and the Church, the ecclesia, is not really a building but the body of believers, of course) gathering together to fast and pray for miracles such as we see in the New Testament, and sometimes in the Old Testament? Maybe, just maybe, if you had been living in such a culture, the problems would have been resolved more quickly?

Rhetorical questions.