God loves everyone?

[ilovejcsog]

@Hammster:
When I first noticed your posts I thought you were a staffer trying to stimulate people to post their beliefs.. All of your topics seemed to be a test for the reader to ponder.
But now I am wondering if you are in doubt of your own beliefs? Your questions sound like something a non believer struggles with.

 

[A_Thinker]

I don't understand those who really really think they'd just tell God off for choosing them to save...

You're right ... you don't understand them ... because you are different from them.

I wouldn't believe it unless I had seen it. Men and women, who, like Lucifer, would rather run their own lives (even into the ground) than submit to God.

Those who are submissive to God ... must be willing to face their own finititude/insignificance (to the order of things) ... and many are not willing to do this.

I read a book once by M. Scott Peck (author of "The Road Less Traveled") ... titled "People of the Lie". Peck was a practicing psychologist who was repeatedly coming across people in his practice who defied psychological diagnosis, but who were, in one way or another, prone to unexplained evil.

One of his early encounters with this phenomenon was with the parents of a clinically depressed teen whose older brother had recently committed suicide. In his interrogation of the teen, he found that the parents had, recently, "gifted" this teen ... with the same handgun that his brother had killed himself with.

Another patient who he counseled seemed to manifest a great deal of chaos in her life and in the lives of those around her. He finally began to see that the patient herself ... was purposely creating and maintaining this chaos. When he counseled that she might have a more enjoyable life ... if she submitted more to the norms of society, she explained that her ability to create chaos ... gave her a significance that she couldn't have otherwise.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You're right ... you don't understand them ... because you are different from them.

I wouldn't believe it unless I had seen it. Men and women, who, like Lucifer, would rather run their own lives (into the ground) than submit to God.

Those who are submissive to God ... must be willing to face their own finititude/insignificance (to the order of things) ... and many are not willing to do this.

I read a book once by M. Scott Peck (author of "The Road Less Traveled") ... titled "People of the Lie". Peck was a practicing psychologist who was repeatedly coming across people in his practice who defied psychological diagnosis, but who were, in one way or another, prone to unexplained evil.

One of his early encounters with this phenomenon was with the parents of a clinically depressed teen whose older brother had recently committed suicide. In his interrogation of the teen, he found that the parents had, recently, "gifted" this teen ... with the same handgun that his brother had killed himself with.

Another patient who he counseled seemed to manifest a great deal of chaos in her life. He finally began to see that the patient herself ... was purposely creating and maintaining the chaos in her life. When he counseled that she might have a more enjoyable life ... if she submitted more to the norms of society, she explained that her ability to create chaos ... gave her a significance that she couldn't have otherwise.

Yet, I don't think I am different. I believe in total depravity. We all have freewill, but we would all choose for sin every time.

This is why God has to lift us out of the sin, and then, like a fish realizing they've been wet, we see everything differently. This is why Jesus is seen as our Shepard.. because he has to Shepard us.. we need the Holy Spirit gently reminding us, guiding us, helping us, correcting us or we'd never make it..

 

[sdowney717]

Yet, I don't think I am different. I believe in total depravity. We all have freewill, but we would all choose for sin every time.

This is why God has to lift us out of the sin, and then, like a fish realizing they've been wet, we see everything differently. This is why Jesus is seen as our Shepard.. because he has to Shepard us.. we need the Holy Spirit gently reminding us, guiding us, helping us, correcting us or we'd never make it..

We though are kept by the power of God through (by means of ) faith, and faith is God's gift to us.
So we have also become slaves of righteousness. We are no longer free to sin.

Romans 6 says our fruit is now to holiness, God did that, ordained that we bear good fruit and so we do, He designed us to be what we are.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Hammster]

"So if He could, but doesn’t, how is that loving? It baffles me that the all-loving God you propose doesn’t love everyone enough to save them, since He can. He leaves it all up to us. "

He loves us enough to give us a choice. Why give them a choice then? You would love him more if he took away your choice. What would that make him? You sound like a Universalist. Is that love or even freedom if he takes away our choices to please himself, that is not love.

You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about our choice. If He loves us without condition, why eternal torment? Why not just something less than that? Or, why not just give us a new heart?

 

[Hammster]

He is not punishing them they are responsible for their punishment. They have a choice that doesn't lead to any punishment but glory. Don't you know that humans are gluttons for punishment

That’s a very light view of hell. It’s very serious. And no, God is responsible. He punishes wickedness.

 

[sdowney717]

"So if He could, but doesn’t, how is that loving? It baffles me that the all-loving God you propose doesn’t love everyone enough to save them, since He can. He leaves it all up to us. "

He loves us enough to give us a choice. Why give them a choice then? You would love him more if he took away your choice. What would that make him? You sound like a Universalist. Is that love or even freedom if he takes away our choices to please himself, that is not love.

A slave of sin is not free to make a choice. Satan blinds the minds of them that do not believe. 2 Corinthians 4.
God has to regenerate the unbelieving sinner, make them born again for them to know Him, follow and believe.
All mankind is born into this world and that world is under the sway of Satan, and all people are naturally his ally and sinful and dead in trespasses, and do not listen to Christ.

Jesus says unbelievers do not have the love of God in them, His word, He says, has no place in them, they have not been born of God. They are still of Satan, OF THE WORLD, and those people will never believe in Him.
v47, Christ says if you were of God you would hear God's words, and therefore you do not hear, because you are not OF God.
John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Hammster]

What has the average human being done directly to God ... other than ignore Him ?

How is that different from swimmers ignoring a lifeguard ?

There’s the whole sin thing. That’s pretty serious.

 

[Hammster]

@Hammster:
When I first noticed your posts I thought you were a staffer trying to stimulate people to post their beliefs.. All of your topics seemed to be a test for the reader to ponder.
But now I am wondering if you are in doubt of your own beliefs? Your questions sound like something a non believer struggles with.

I’m not in doubt at all. My questions are because I don’t think a lot of folks have thought through the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

 

[ilovejcsog]

"That’s a very light view of hell. It’s very serious. And no, God is responsible. He punishes wickedness."

I generally do miss the point and yes it is very serious.

" My questions are because I don’t think a lot of folks have thought through the logical conclusions of their beliefs."
I do believe this about you. Carry on.

I am glad to know you are not fighting to get all people a free ride to heaven despite their disobedience and rejection of God.

 

[ilovejcsog]

"

 

[ChicanaRose]

I am glad to know you are not fighting to get all people a free ride to heaven despite their disobedience and rejection of God.

I don't think Reformed faith is about free ride to heaven or abuse of grace. John Piper writes:

"When you offer Christ freely to all unbelievers, suppose one says, “I have sinned too terribly. God could never choose to save me.” The most ultimate despair-destroying thing you can say is this: Do you realize that God chose before the foundation of the world whom he will save...

Therefore, you dare not get in God’s face and tell him what qualifications you lack in order to be chosen. There were no qualifications for being chosen. “What then should I do?” he asks. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). That’s how you begin to “confirm your calling and election” (2 Peter 1:10)."

Five Reasons to Embrace Unconditional Election

 

[sdowney717]

I don't think Reformed faith is about free ride to heaven or abuse of grace. John Piper writes:

"When you offer Christ freely to all unbelievers, suppose one says, “I have sinned too terribly. God could never choose to save me.” The most ultimate despair-destroying thing you can say is this: Do you realize that God chose before the foundation of the world whom he will save...

Therefore, you dare not get in God’s face and tell him what qualifications you lack in order to be chosen. There were no qualifications for being chosen. “What then should I do?” he asks. “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). That’s how you begin to “confirm your calling and election” (2 Peter 1:10)."

Five Reasons to Embrace Unconditional Election

Good thoughts there.
In Acts, at the council of Jerusalem with the apostles, was said God visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His name, and that those he saved from among the nations were those that He called by His name. They were the rest of Mankind to seek the Lord, and HE was responsible, He did all those things not the people He saved.

Then it says Known to God from eternity are all His works.
On the 7th day, God rested from all His works. So at the foundation of the earth all His works had been completed by the end of the creation week, which includes our individual election, the foreknown ones.

14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

 

[sdowney717]

Hebrews 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Promise of Rest
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

Now here we see all God's works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Including those who will have faith (which God grants) to believe, and those of whom He swore they shall not enter My rest. So we have election and reprobation explained again from the foundation of the world that God had predetermined-predestined all things.

'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nobody has the ability. It’s not something that we do.

Ok let me rephrase the question, does everyone have the opportunity to be born again?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay. But why punish people just because He doesn’t get His way? Seems petty.

Ok so God saying inny minny miney moe is better? God says to one sinner you I will save and to another sinner you I will punish forever, that is just?

 

[Hammster]

"That’s a very light view of hell. It’s very serious. And no, God is responsible. He punishes wickedness."

I generally do miss the point and yes it is very serious.

" My questions are because I don’t think a lot of folks have thought through the logical conclusions of their beliefs."
I do believe this about you. Carry on.

I am glad to know you are not fighting to get all people a free ride to heaven despite their disobedience and rejection of God.

We all disobey and reject Him from time to time. That’s why I’m thankful for Romans 8:1.

 

[Hammster]

Ok let me rephrase the question, does everyone have the opportunity to be born again?

That still really doesn’t make sense. That just implies that we’d be in some sort of position to do something. And we don’t make ourselves born again.

 

[Hammster]

Ok so God saying inny minny miney moe is better? God says to one sinner you I will save and to another sinner you I will punish forever, that is just?

No, it’s not just. Just would be punishing all of us forever. You don’t want justice. You want mercy. And that’s God gives to His elect.

 

[A_Thinker]

Yet, I don't think I am different. I believe in total depravity. We all have freewill, but we would all choose for sin every time.

I mean that you are different now, ... as a new creation, with a new heart, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It would be hard for you to see life as one who isn't of God. But there are those who haven't chosen the things of God.

I wonder why you suppose that, having freewill, we would choose for sin every time. I would agree that we cannot live up to high call of God on our own (Romans 3:23), but I don't think that the Biblical record supports that all of us .... are all-consumed by sin.

Otherwise, how do we account for biblical Abel, or Seth ? Also Enoch, Noah, Job, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Esther, Hezekiah, Josiah, David, Nehemiah, Hannah, Samuel, etc. ?

All of these lived prior to the fulfillment of God's plan to save us.

How did these manage to live lives which were not consumed by sin (i.e. depraved) ?

What does Jesus mean when He teaches to Nicodemus ...

John 3

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Who are "they who do the truth" ?