Mass shooting leaves at least 18 dead, dozens injured in El Paso, police sa

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Kentonio

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In 2018, an estimated 40,000 people lost their lives to car crashes – a 1% decline from 2017 (40,231 deaths) and 2016 (40,327 deaths).

Do we restrict the use of Cars because there are people who shouldn't have access to a car?

The POINT IS people are not crying over 40,000 people dying on the roads.
50 million abortions have been performed in the United States since 1973,

Where are the restrictions on Abortion?

I don’t care about your opinions regarding abortion, and bringing it up in a discussion about murder rates is meaningless to me.

As for cars, trying to use them as an excuse for allowing your citizens to walk around carrying lethal weaponry is frankly laughable. You’re basically advancing an argument that guns can never be faulted because people die of lots of things. Ok, it’s your country. Keep having your mass shootings, keep watching innocent people and kids get butchered and do nothing. Apparently wandering around feeling like Wyatt Earp is more important to you. Ok, that’s your choice, America is a free country.
 
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JosephZ

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El Paso is about 80% Hispanic, he didn't go to this particular Wal-Mart to target Republicans.
If the manifesto turns out to have been written by the shooter which all indications are pointing to, he was specifically targeting Hispanics.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You literally just advanced an argument that murder via gun don’t matter because more people die of illness or accident.
I think I misunderstood I did not mean that the people do not matter or that murder by gun ( or any other means should be acceptable. Whether that sometimes people seem to think we have a LOT of people that die in mass shootings when in reality the number is quite low. 2/3 of all gun related deaths are by the person's own hand. Then you have a certain percentage that are accidental ( usually involving some sort of carelessness on the part of the shooter ( though not always. Then you have a certain percentage where it would not have matter because someone wanted a particular person or persons dead and therefore would have been likely to use just about any method. Then you have a percentage that are justified homicides ( self-defense) by the time you remove all of that really the number of people that would saved by tighter firearms restrictions in terms of preventing mass shootings is quite low, Mental health and focusing on safety around firearms would seem to be a better option.
 
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DaisyDay

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So is their population compared to over 350,000,000.
But with the influx of Migrants we will see a commensurate rise in Homicides.
The native born exterminating the interlopers?
 
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Hazelelponi

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If the manifesto turns out to have been written by the shooter which all indications are pointing to, he was specifically targeting Hispanics.

I've been waiting for walmart to be a target because of the prevalence of republican shoppers..

so this just seems contrived to say he targeted specifically due to race and race alone..

especially after the California targeting of a largely capitalist food event.. it seems the right is under fire by crazies who are convinced we are evil by the politicians and handlers who they follow...

Although, my husband is thinking this push for open borders will backfire upon us all, because crazies will react to it by taking law into their own hands when the government refuses to enforce existing law meant to protect our citizens..

So it's a toss up I guess... you could be correct, or its possible he was trying to misdirect and obfuscate the intent of this attack with this manifesto..

either way things are going all manner of bad, very fast.
 
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JosephZ

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I've been waiting for walmart to be a target because of the prevalence of republican shoppers..

so this just seems contrived to say he targeted specifically due to race and race alone..

especially after the California targeting of a largely capitalist food event.. it seems the right is under fire by crazies who are convinced we are evil by the politicians and handlers who they follow...

Although, my husband is thinking this push for open borders will backfire upon us all, because crazies will react to it by taking law into their own hands when the government refuses to enforce existing law meant to protect our citizens..

So it's a toss up I guess... you could be correct, or its possible he was trying to misdirect and obfuscate the intent of this attack with this manifesto..

either way things are going all manner of bad, very fast.
Reading the manifesto leaves little doubt in who was being targeted. Below are a few lines from it.

This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion.

The heavy Hispanic population in Texas will make us a Democrat stronghold. Losing Texas and a few other states with heavy Hispanic population to the Democrats is all it would take for them to win nearly every presidential election.

Hispanics will take control of the local and state government of my beloved Texas, changing policy to better suit their needs. They will turn Texas into an instrument of a political coup which will hasten the destruction of our country.

Even if other non-immigrant targets would have a greater impact, I can’t bring myself to kill my fellow Americans.

The writer of the manifesto also went out of their way to relive President Trump of any responsibility for his ideology.

My ideology has not changed for several years. My opinions on automation, immigration, and the rest predate Trump and his campaign for president. I am putting this here because some people will blame the President or certain presidential candidates for the attack. This is not the case. I know that the media will probably call me a white supremacist anyway and blame Trump’s rhetoric. The media is infamous for fake news. Their reaction to this attack will likely just confirm that.

Regardless, I agree with you that things are getting bad.
 
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Kentonio

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I think I misunderstood I did not mean that the people do not matter or that murder by gun ( or any other means should be acceptable. Whether that sometimes people seem to think we have a LOT of people that die in mass shootings when in reality the number is quite low. 2/3 of all gun related deaths are by the person's own hand. Then you have a certain percentage that are accidental ( usually involving some sort of carelessness on the part of the shooter ( though not always. Then you have a certain percentage where it would not have matter because someone wanted a particular person or persons dead and therefore would have been likely to use just about any method. Then you have a percentage that are justified homicides ( self-defense) by the time you remove all of that really the number of people that would saved by tighter firearms restrictions in terms of preventing mass shootings is quite low, Mental health and focusing on safety around firearms would seem to be a better option.

You know, I fully realize that I can come across as abrasive in these gun threads sometimes. The thing is though I was actually raised in a gun owning family, surrounded by gun owning family friends back before the ban in the UK. I think I was about 7 the first time I held an AK47, and I really don’t have any cast iron ideological issues with firearms.

But here’s the thing, back when a mass shooting (two actually) led to first the banning of semi-automatic rifles and then handguns, it was my family and their friends who had to give up their weapons. And there was plenty of grumbling about how ‘good gun owners shouldn’t be punished for what a few psychos did’ etc etc. But especially in the wake of the second attack, Dumblane, where a school full of kids were slaughtered, most people just accepted that this couldn’t be allowed to happen again. And it hasn’t. Since Dumblane happened in 1996 we’ve had exactly 1 mass shooting, which was a madman with a shotgun and a .22 rifle who drove around a rural area murdering 12 people.

Now don’t get me wrong, we’ve had terrorist attacks since, we’ve had gang related shootings and the like, but in terms of people going crazy and trying to just kill lots of people it hasn’t happened that they’ve just carried on at the same rate just using other means. Because other means just aren’t effective. Yes people still murder, but without a gun to make it easy it’s far less likely to result in mass casualties, suicides attempts are far, far less likely to be fatal, and so on.

When you see us people from other countries imploring you guys to change on guns, it’s purely because we’ve seen how effective change can be. Remember when mass shootings in the US were front page news around the world? I do. People everywhere were shocked after Columbine. Shocked beyond words after Sandy Hook. Now? Mass shootings are happening so often we can barely keep track, let alone be shocked any more.

We want you to change because we don’t want your people to keep getting butchered. That’s all.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Reading the manifesto leaves little doubt in who was being targeted. Below are a few lines from it.

This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion.

The heavy Hispanic population in Texas will make us a Democrat stronghold. Losing Texas and a few other states with heavy Hispanic population to the Democrats is all it would take for them to win nearly every presidential election.

Hispanics will take control of the local and state government of my beloved Texas, changing policy to better suit their needs. They will turn Texas into an instrument of a political coup which will hasten the destruction of our country.

Even if other non-immigrant targets would have a greater impact, I can’t bring myself to kill my fellow Americans.

The writer of the manifesto also went out of their way to relive President Trump of any responsibility for his ideology.

My ideology has not changed for several years. My opinions on automation, immigration, and the rest predate Trump and his campaign for president. I am putting this here because some people will blame the President or certain presidential candidates for the attack. This is not the case. I know that the media will probably call me a white supremacist anyway and blame Trump’s rhetoric. The media is infamous for fake news. Their reaction to this attack will likely just confirm that.

Regardless, I agree with you that things are getting bad.

Reaction to the government's refusal to enforce the law and protect our borders then.. just as my husband expected.

in the meantime, just sitting here popping popcorn watching the beginning of the next civil war.. not much can be done for it when the talking heads can't stop instigating it..
 
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Queller

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I've been waiting for walmart to be a target because of the prevalence of republican shoppers..
On what evidence do you base your claim that Republicans are the prevalent shoppers at Walmart?

so this just seems contrived to say he targeted specifically due to race and race alone..
And if the manifesto attributed to him turns out to genuine?

especially after the California targeting of a largely capitalist food event.. it seems the right is under fire by crazies who are convinced we are evil by the politicians and handlers who they follow...
Because apparently California Democrats don't like garlic?

Although, my husband is thinking this push for open borders will backfire upon us all, because crazies will react to it by taking law into their own hands when the government refuses to enforce existing law meant to protect our citizens..
Since no Democrat (or anyone else for that matter) is pushing for "open borders", it will just be crazies being crazy I guess.

So it's a toss up I guess... you could be correct, or its possible he was trying to misdirect and obfuscate the intent of this attack with this manifesto..
For what reason?

either way things are going all manner of bad, very fast.
true
 
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ByTheSpirit

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there literally MILLIONS of gun owners in America, I can guarantee you if guns were a true issue (or gun owners) the whole world would know about it. Besides, what is all this "gun control" talk going to accomplish?

Let's be realistic!

How many would willingly surrender their firearms to the govt? Maybe 1%? Then what if they don't? Forceful removal? Doubtful!

What about closing loopholes? This guy may not have had any indicators he would do something like this until after he had bought the firearm. The Sandy Hook school shooting was done by a looney with a stolen gun.

It's all talking points. Americans would never surrender their weapons.

Serving in the military, we are always taught to make ourselves a "hard target". Be vigilant and always look ready to defend yourself. Because "soft targets" are much more likely to be attacked. Instead of more gun free zones (which don't work) There should be less! This guy's manifesto even mentions something like this!
 
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expos4ever

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thank you. I could have a gun sitting on this desk and with very few exceptions it would not do a darn thing without some action on my part.
The implied argument here appears to be that since a gun cannot act of its own volition, it cannot be part of the problem.

What an inane position.

A nuclear weapon cannot “do a darn thing” on its own. But does this mean it would not be problematic if these were as common in houses as guns?

Honestly, some, repeat some, of the pro-gun arguments are mystifyingly stupid.
 
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charsan

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eighteen people are dead and all this thread is about is the right to be a gun nut and republicans at walmart...

Exactly none of the people care about praying, just politics
 
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charsan

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Thoughts and prayers haven't done much to stop gun violence so far.

And thee is a dumb response, it's not about gun violence. It's about mental disorders that are not getting treated
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Exactly none of the people care about praying, just politics

A very bold statement to make. Can I not pray and make a statement about civil rights and liberty at the same time? Or does doing one automatically make me ineligible to do the other?
 
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comana

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And thee is a dumb response, it's not about gun violence. It's about mental disorders that are not getting treated
I'm pretty sure 20 people died today because of gun violence.
 
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And thee is a dumb response, it's not about gun violence. It's about mental disorders that are not getting treated

What mental disorder did the man have? And, is it the kind we're allowed to treat?

Further, are we allowed to bar people with such a disorder from obtaining firearms?
 
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