Desperate manhunt for killer of 16 [ETA: 18] in Maine mass shooting as residents shelter in place

[dogs4thewin]

Any further suggestions on reducing the carnage will be be welcome.

Well, it is not regulating the wrong guns ( at least if you want to save more lives (as opposed to the appearance of saving more lives ) People want to stop mass shootings I do too, but that would not bring down the numbers as much as people think.

 

[Bradskii]

Well, it is not regulating the wrong guns...

Well then, there's no point in suggesting that. Try to think of something else that you think would work. As opposed to telling us what wouldn't.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Well then, there's no point in suggesting that. Try to think of something else that you think would work. As opposed to telling us what wouldn't.

How many lives do we want to save a few or a lot?

The guns that would supposedly save the most lives are the ones that people least want to regulate and the ones that tend to actually already the most regulated ( at least other than things like machine guns).

What we need instead is better mental health care ( already improving somewhat) That is in terms of it being acceptable to seek help. The other thing that would help is better enforcement of crimes involving guns.


For example, right now we do have enhancements for crimes committed with a firearm ( especially violent crimes ( as opposed to just carrying without a permit or something, and yet those enhancements are many times dropped with plea bargains and some things that should not just have short sentences ( some of it is due to prison overcrowding (from things that should not have long sentences having long sentences, The point being that right now ( often though not always people who commit crimes with guns sometimes get off lighter than people who are non-violent offenders Which means they get out and are at it again in short order. That and often the prisons in the states frankly do little more ( some states are worse than others, but create better criminals as imposed to better citizens on the outside.


The other thing that can sometimes be costly is the fact that as I mentioned before police have to be pretty darn near perfect when enforcing the law or lose their case and so sometimes those plea bargains are forced by the fact that they did not do it right, so certain things maybe the gun, maybe statements have to be thrown out of court resulting in either no case or a much weaker/lesser case.

 

[Bradskii]

How many lives do we want to save a few or a lot?

Oh, not too many...

 

[Desk trauma]

As opposed to illegally? What?

Make it a law. Give the police the powers. Save lives. It's what you should do as a civilised people concerned for the welfare of fellow men, women and children.

Yes but we’re talking about the US.

 

[JustOneWay]

Actually, it seems that they did not because there are laws that forbid people who have been committed spent time in mental hospitals (especially recently from having guns, yet he did; moreover, oftentimes violent offenders are released either on bond or parole and reoffend with guns that they are not supposed to have.

Once again, laws rarely stop a crime before the crime is carried out. For the most part, laws are meant to identify crimes after the fact in order to assign punishment.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Once again, laws rarely stop a crime before the crime is carried out. For the most part, laws are meant to identify crimes after the fact in order to assign punishment.

yes laws are for a number of purposes and assigning punishment is one of them.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Oh, not too many...

put it differently

suppose there were 1,100 that were in danger of dying the choices were


A we can save 1,000 of them over the course of a year

or B we could save 100 people from dying at one time

Would it make more sense to save the 100 or save the 1,000?

For this situation assume that saving all 1,100 is not an option.

 

[JustOneWay]

yes laws are for a number of purposes and assigning punishment is one of them.

You completely missed my point.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You completely missed my point.

well then what was your point that the laws already on the books only do good after the fact?

A this is not always true and B looking above at my example the additional regulations most often suggested would save fewer lives than the ones already on the books would be likely to save.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Maine gunman’s family contacted police months before massacre, sheriff says​

Relatives, Army Reserve friends, told authorities Card was deteriorating mentally and had access to firearms. Sheriff deputies couldn’t locate him.​

In addition to his own relatives, law enforcement officials and government agencies also expressed anxiety about Robert Card and the possible risk he posed to others

Authorities knew Maine shooter was a threat​

PORTLAND, Maine —
Police who declined to confront an Army reservist in the weeks before he killed 18 people in Maine’s deadliest mass shooting feared that doing so would “throw a stick of dynamite on a pool of gas,” according to video released Friday by law enforcement.

[I mean, I get it. The dude was violent, hallucinating and had access to guns. I wouldn't want to knock on his door, or ask my subordinates to knock on his door. But if we're all outta solutions, then we just have to live with this.]

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Authorities knew Maine shooter was a threat​

PORTLAND, Maine —
Police who declined to confront an Army reservist in the weeks before he killed 18 people in Maine’s deadliest mass shooting feared that doing so would “throw a stick of dynamite on a pool of gas,” according to video released Friday by law enforcement.

[I mean, I get it. The dude was violent, hallucinating and had access to guns. I wouldn't want to knock on his door, or ask my subordinates to knock on his door. But if we're all outta solutions, then we just have to live with this.]

I'm wondering if they've had issues before with regards to trying to either charge and/or apprehend service members? Or perhaps the the head of that police dept maybe had a little "too cozy" of a relationship with whoever was in charge at whichever base he was assigned to?

I've noted before that I had a friend who worked for a Police Dept here in Ohio, it happened to be one that wasn't far from a base, and the bars where those guys liked to go "let loose" a little was in their jurisdiction. He said it got to the point where if you pulled someone over (things ranging from mild traffic infractions up to things like the person swerving and smelling alcohol on them) and they flashed that ID, it was kind of a "why bother, this is a waste of time, nothing will come of it besides us having them sit in the back of our car for 30 mins, and then someone showing up telling us we had to cut them loose and we'll get chewed out afterwards"

I'm not sure what that police department in Maine is like. But I know some of the smaller township/county PDs here in Ohio have some "lack of transparency" and "proper procedure" issues.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I would like to know what we train these people to do. Is it just to deliver mail? Or stop innocent people that may be driving 11 miles [per hour] over the speed limit?”

 

[essentialsaltes]

Evidence of traumatic brain injury seen in shooter who killed 18 in Maine​

Card had been an instructor at an Army hand grenade training range, where it is believed he was exposed to thousands of low-level blasts.

 

[rjs330]

That's nonsense. LE is trained for these types of things. However, they have been more cautious in doing so. If they would have responded to the guys house to talk to him and check on him and he went ballistic and they had to kill him the press and the left would have been all over them for killing an innocent mental health person. I mean didn't they know he had mental health issues, they should have been prepared for him etc etc etc.

They are more worried about bad press and Justice warriors than about doing their jobs. I know officers who were shot because they were concerned about shooting first because of concerns over being crucified and charged with civil rights violations.

Besides was it illegal for him to have guns? I'm all for mental health processing before people are allowed to own guns it even keep them. I've got no issues with making someone get a mental health checkup if people are concerned they were spiralling out of control. But who's going to enforce that? Social workers? If they went to his house he probably would have killed them too. No it would have to be police. And then they are scrutinized to the enth degree on what they do if something goes down.

I can hear it now. "You guys knew if you went it would throw a match on a fire. What did you think was going to happen. It's your fault he's dead."

THIS is what happens when police are so attacked. They get squeamish. And I don't blame them. It's human nature.

 

[Bradskii]

But who's going to enforce that? Social workers? If they went to his house he probably would have killed them too. No it would have to be police.

You bet. That's their job.

 

[rjs330]

You bet. That's their job.

It's you and the rest of the leftists you have caused the reaction of the police in this case. They didn't go because they were afraid of what would happen. There aren't any laws requiring they act in that case yet you think they should have. Yet if they did go over and get in a shoot out you'd all be upset about police responding and that social workers should have been involved and they should have known that he was going to go off the ledge and shouldn't have gone over there.

And now you still want to blame them after they have been found not guilty in a court of law. Cops can't win with people like you.

 

[Bradskii]

It's you and the rest of the leftists you have caused the reaction of the police in this case. They didn't go because they were afraid of what would happen. There aren't any laws requiring they act in that case yet you think they should have. Yet if they did go over and get in a shoot out you'd all be upset about police responding and that social workers should have been involved and they should have known that he was going to go off the ledge and shouldn't have gone over there.

And now you still want to blame them after they have been found not guilty in a court of law. Cops can't win with people like you.

I didn't know you'd interviewed the police and they'd told you how frightened they were. And I really don't think that there actually needs to be a law for someone to officially check on a dude that has been reported to have serious mental problems and has weapons at his house.

If there wasn't a legal option for them to question the guy in order for someone to make decisions about whether he should keep those weapons, then that is probably the reason they didn't go. Otherwise, someone dropped the ball.

It is a risible suggestion that police not go check on someone they think might start shooting people because they might start shooting people.

'I'm certain there's a crack dealers den in the basement of that building. You need to check it out.'
'Oh, no. They may have guns and start shooting.'

'You and the rest of the leftists...' Good grief...

 

[Pommer]

It is a risible suggestion that police not go check on someone they think might start shooting people because he might start shooting people.

I likes me a well-crafted sentence; nicely made point, as well.

 

[rjs330]

I didn't know you'd interviewed the police and they'd told you how frightened they were. And I really don't think that there actually needs to be a law for someone to officially check on a dude that has been reported to have serious mental problems and has weapons at his house.

If there wasn't a legal option for them to question the guy in order for someone to make decisions about whether he should keep those weapons, then that is probably the reason they didn't go. Otherwise, someone dropped the ball.

It is a risible suggestion that police not go check on someone they think might start shooting people because they might start shooting people.

'I'm certain there's a crack dealers den in the basement of that building. You need to check it out.'
'Oh, no. They may have guns and start shooting.'

'You and the rest of the leftists...' Good grief...

So in other words you don't know and have just been jumping to conclusions like everyone else.

By the way I whole heartedly agree with you that the cops SHOULD have gone over there. Buy unlike you I have an understanding of the dynamics involved with the leftists coming after the cops like they have. The political outrage is real and police are being more cautious these days, not because THEY are afraid of being shot at but because they are concerned with the public outcry over their actions in a scenario like this. Being blamed for escalating the problem.