The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Saint Steven]

If Lake Superior is only "age-during" instead of eternal, then lobsters will come out when everyone else does.

Chapter and verse please. - lol

 

[Wrangler]

Chapter and verse please. - lol

It's in a book of Apostasy. The Gospel of Nemo, I think.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right. John 3:16 says NOTHING about what happens to those who do not believe. It is an inference you are drawing from the text ... "Whoever drinks this water will have their thirst quenched forever." This statement does not mean thirst cannot be quenched in other ways. Moreover, WHEN this belief has to happen is also an inference you are drawing from the text.

The word "that" does appear twice. (cause and effect)

- For God so loved the world...
- that he gave his one and only Son, ...

- that whoever believes in him...
- shall not perish but have eternal life

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Wrangler]

Universal Restoration

Acts 3:20-21 (VOICE)
20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Wrangler The same thing happens in these other scriptures.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Wrangler]

The word "that" does appear twice. (cause and effect)

Again, you are reading into it that which is not there. Said differently, I've never heard that is a form of cause and effect and is not reflected in other translations, which do not have 2 that's in the verse.

John 3:16(VOICE)
16 For God expressed His love for the world in this way: He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not face everlasting destruction, but will have everlasting life.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler The same thing happens in these other scriptures.

My God man. You didn't answer my basic point about Scripture resurrecting everyone. We agreed to stick to John 3:16. I know your MO is to only stick to verses you interpret to support your position while ignoring other verses (and interpretations) as a kind of Appeal to Majority.

No comments on universal restoration eh?

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, you are reading into it that which is not there. Said differently, I've never heard that is a form of cause and effect and is not reflected in other translations, which do not have 2 that's in the verse.

John 3:16(VOICE)
16 For God expressed His love for the world in this way: He gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not face everlasting destruction, but will have everlasting life.

You are proving my point. Your chosen translation (paraphrase) includes "in this way" and "so that". (see bolded in your post above)

But more amazingly, also contains "everlasting destruction" - lol (bold/red/large)

 

[Saint Steven]

We agreed to stick to John 3:16.

I don't recall any such agreement.

 

[FineLinen]

Yeah I can appreciate the cynicism. It isn't how things usually work. But it is supposed to be "good news" right?

I just see a massive theological and philosophical problem. The Bible makes clear and obvious claims that death is, and will ultimately be, completely defeated. But how is it defeated if even 10 people, who others love, get no escape from it? The fact then is it was not completely defeated - because not even those who escape from it truly escape from its consequences. We all feel the pain of death, and forever. That's not a proper defeat, and hardly the way the Bible tends to put it.

The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby

The Lake Of Fire & Divinity

Brimstone= theion

Root of theion= Theos

Theion= the breath of Jehovah/ Theos

The Lake of Divine Fire

 

[Wrangler]

I don't recall any such agreement.

I'm sure you don't.

 

[Saint Steven]

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Is that why no one knows where Sodom and Gomorra really were? No trace found.

 

[Wrangler]

You are proving my point. Your chosen translation (paraphrase) includes "in this way" and "so that". (see bolded in your post above)

But more amazingly, also contains "everlasting destruction" - lol (bold/red/large)

You are desperately reading in what is not there. This is the 3rd time I am pointing out that this verse does NOT say:
1. WHEN this must happen
2. That there is no other way to avoid destruction.

Regarding your awe over 'everlasting destruction,' I take this to be exactly as St Paul says that he dies every day. That is, destruction is an event that does not last forever but has ever lasting consequences. I got divorced. This was an event. I am not eternally going through the divorce process.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm sure you don't.

Because there wasn't one.

 

[Saint Steven]

I got divorced. This was an event.

An event? Why wasn't I invited?
Oh, I know. Probably happened before we met.
Yes, unlike everlasting destruction, when it's over, it's over. (divorce)

Most would say that "everlasting destruction" paled in comparison. (to divorce) Still the number one cause of suicide for men.

 

[Saint Steven]

You are desperately reading in what is not there.

Oh, no; it definitely says "everlasting destruction".

 

[Wrangler]

Because there wasn't one.

There is your arrogance again. So, what is your response to the basic point that Scripture indicates all will be resurrected and death and second death are misnomers?

 

[Saint Steven]

1. WHEN this must happen
2. That there is no other way to avoid destruction.

Maybe these will shed some light.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Are you claiming that 1Cor.15:42 is in reference to all of humanity? Not just believers?

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

2 Corinthians 5:4
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

I'm sorry Steve that I missed this post earlier.

Yes, I am claiming that 1Cor.15:42 is in reference to all of humanity, Not just believers. Isn't it true that everyone will be resurrected on Judgement Day? (Not sure where you stand on soul sleep)

 

[Saint Steven]

There is your arrogance again.

Why is it arrogance to differ with you about there being an agreement?
Is it arrogant simply to disagree with you? There was no agreement.
You decided all on your own that you would only address one of my verses.
I had no part in the decision.