The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Wrangler]

No, that is not correct.
We were just looking at Jn.3:16 which says believers have eternal life, not everyone.

Oy vey.John 3:16 does NOT say "not everyone." That is YOU reading into it what you want.

Just so I am clear about what you are saying. You are not admitting that Scripture - overall fails to state that everyone is resurrected - on the grounds that just John 3:16 does not state that, right?

Even going with this, the problem is what is called a pregnant premise (or something like that). Example: "You can go in the front door to get my cell phone." This statement does NOT mean acquiring the cell phone could NOT be achieved by going through some other door or window or breaking a wall down, etc.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It seems that our justice system is based on the law God gave to the Israelites.
The "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" law that saw a man stoned to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. Which was then commemorated with tassels to be worn on their garments, lest they forget. Numbers 15:32-41

Well, yes...but if you've read Paul, then you know that that Law was not enough, nor could anyone obey it fully in the flesh, except Jesus the Christ. Paul said that the Law was our tutor until something better was brought to bear: the Good News with Grace and Faith attending.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No, that is not correct.
We were just looking at Jn.3:16 which says believers have eternal life, not everyone.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

My take on John 3:16 is that ALL will in time become members of "whoever believes," and so ALL will have eventual "eternal life." It starts off with eonian life, which simply segues into "eternal life." Of course only God is eternal, having no beginning or end.

 

[HatGuy]

Thanks for your response.
Universalism has an obvious appeal to it. And I hope you guys are right.
Simply think differently and hell vanishes in thin air. (happy, happy)
But that's not usually how things work.

Yeah I can appreciate the cynicism. It isn't how things usually work. But it is supposed to be "good news" right?

I just see a massive theological and philosophical problem. The Bible makes clear and obvious claims that death is, and will ultimately be, completely defeated. But how is it defeated if even 10 people, who others love, get no escape from it? The fact then is it was not completely defeated - because not even those who escape from it truly escape from its consequences. We all feel the pain of death, and forever. That's not a proper defeat, and hardly the way the Bible tends to put it.

 

[HatGuy]

I mean, which is more powerful - death, or love?

Which of those transcends space and time?

These aren't lovey dovey hippie sorts of questions. These are massive philosophical problems that strike to the core of the human heart and existence.

Ultimately death still does not quench my love for those I truly love, which means love transcends space and time. If that is the case, why would God let death have the last word?

Well, according to the Bible, it doesn't.

So if it doesn't, and God is love, why couldn't that love transcend space and time and therefore, even the space and time of hell?

And so on

 

[HatGuy]

I mean, listen to this:

1 Cor 15:
"20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.”

Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?


These are not light, feel good little statements

 

[Saint Steven]

Oy vey.John 3:16 does NOT say "not everyone." That is YOU reading into it what you want.

Just so I am clear about what you are saying. You are not admitting that Scripture - overall fails to state that everyone is resurrected - on the grounds that just John 3:16 does not state that, right?

Even going with this, the problem is what is called a pregnant premise (or something like that). Example: "You can go in the front door to get my cell phone." This statement does NOT mean acquiring the cell phone could NOT be achieved by going through some other door or window or breaking a wall down, etc.

That's exactly what it is saying. Those who believe have eternal life.
Being in the resurrection of the dead is not the same as having eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, yes...but if you've read Paul, then you know that that Law was not enough, nor could anyone obey it fully in the flesh, except Jesus the Christ. Paul said that the Law was our tutor until something better was brought to bear: the Good News with Grace and Faith attending.

Right, I'm not defending the law.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah I can appreciate the cynicism. It isn't how things usually work. But it is supposed to be "good news" right?

I just see a massive theological and philosophical problem. The Bible makes clear and obvious claims that death is, and will ultimately be, completely defeated. But how is it defeated if even 10 people, who others love, get no escape from it? The fact then is it was not completely defeated - because not even those who escape from it truly escape from its consequences. We all feel the pain of death, and forever. That's not a proper defeat, and hardly the way the Bible tends to put it.

Well, that's the question. What does it mean to defeat death? Usual a defeat only means to prevent something from continuing, not to prevent it from happening in the first place.

 

[Saint Steven]

I mean, which is more powerful - death, or love?

Which of those transcends space and time?

These aren't lovey dovey hippie sorts of questions. These are massive philosophical problems that strike to the core of the human heart and existence.

Ultimately death still does not quench my love for those I truly love, which means love transcends space and time. If that is the case, why would God let death have the last word?

Well, according to the Bible, it doesn't.

So if it doesn't, and God is love, why couldn't that love transcend space and time and therefore, even the space and time of hell?

And so on

We certainly couldn't apply that to physical life. Right?

 

[Saint Steven]

I mean, listen to this:

1 Cor 15:
"20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.”

Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?


These are not light, feel good little statements

There is even a question about what, or who death is.

Revelation 20:13-15
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

Seriously, your posts are one form of arrogance after another!

I'm sorry that you can't discern between humor and arrogance.
And seriously, you accuse ME of being arrogant? My, my...

 

[Wrangler]

That's exactly what it is saying.

No. Therein lies all your problems; reading words into Scripture that are not there.

and now he is your God. I am telling you everything he has commanded, so don't add anything or take anything away.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (CEV)

 

[Wrangler]

I'm sorry that you can't discern between humor and arrogance.
And seriously, you accuse ME of being arrogant? My, my...

Arrogant humor is arrogant.

 

[Saint Steven]

These are not light, feel good little statements

Here's a conundrum.

Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
The last enemy to be defeated is death.
But if the Lake of Fire is only "age-during" instead of eternal, then death will come out when everyone else does.

Maybe it will be needed again in the next age.

 

[Saint Steven]

Arrogant humor is arrogant.

Neither one of us has control over the misperceptions of others.

 

[Saint Steven]

No. Therein lies all your problems; reading words into Scripture that are not there.

and now he is your God. I am telling you everything he has commanded, so don't add anything or take anything away.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (CEV)

What it says is very clear.
Whoever believes shall have eternal life.

You are the one saying, "Oy vey. John 3:16 does NOT say 'not everyone.'"
Therefore reading words into Scripture that are not there. (everyone)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Wrangler]

But if the Lake of Fire is only "age-during" instead of eternal, then death will come out when everyone else does.

You say such non-logical things like this all the time, connecting 2 disconnected premises, both of which are ramblings, like random words thrown together ... If Lake Superior is only "age-during" instead of eternal, then lobsters will come out when everyone else does.

Obviously, the only thing keeping lobsters from coming out is Lake Superior to be eternal. This is more Circular Reasoning and the significance of keeping lobsters from coming out is left unexplained. Lobsters are coming out of what? And what is the "when" of everyone else? And what is it that everyone else does? Is this all a metaphor for something that is supposed to make sense?

Let's go back to basics. Scripture says that everyone is resurrected and death and "second death" are both misnomers. This is aka universalism of sorts.

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess that answers my question about the NT Greek Lexicon.

@Hillsage The NT Lexicon had a much different usage in Augustine's day than in ours.
It would be unbelievably forward thinking to predict from that time (Augustine's day) that anyone could own a personal Bible and have the sort of tools we have available today. And what influence would Augustine have had since he didn't even read NT Greek?

What you wrote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hillsage said: ↑
Augustine gave that definition with the authority of ROME in order to break the 400 year fight about Ultimate Reconciliation/Universalism held with the majority of the schools of religion in the church world of that day.

 

[Wrangler]

What it says is very clear.
Whoever believes shall have eternal life.

Right. John 3:16 says NOTHING about what happens to those who do not believe. It is an inference you are drawing from the text ... "Whoever drinks this water will have their thirst quenched forever." This statement does not mean thirst cannot be quenched in other ways. Moreover, WHEN this belief has to happen is also an inference you are drawing from the text.