The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Wrangler]

Of course not. We both know that I am stupid. Did you forget?

No, since you remind me with each post.

Do you not recognize how you answered your own question. As I see purgatory, it is not about a length of time as much as a degree of purity. So, the time has not only hope but purpose.

So, what do you imagine is going on there?

Case in point. Asking question I just answered. See post above in blue.

You never did explain how you believe Scripture, John 3:16, violates Universalism.

 

[Gup20]

Good grief Gup! All thanatos ends in the One who swallows it. Every last stinking bit of it ends in the One who makes all things new. The ending is the beginning, the beginning is the ending. Yup, the Lord of ta panta prevails!

You talk funny.

 

[Hillsage]

"HELL ISN’T AS popular as it used to be." - National Geographic

Hmm... that's odd.
Attendance has been increasing steadily. - lol

Thank GOD it has. Especially since it is part of His scriptural plan to deal with the sin and still save the sinners His Son's blood paid for 2000 years ago, before we were even born?

 

[Saint Steven]

You never did explain how you Scripture, John 3:16, violates Universalism.

How could any scripture "violate" Universalism?
Oh, never mind, you probably just told me.

 

[FineLinen]

You talk funny.

Dear Gup: Give a dear old man a break. LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

What about the New Heavens and New Earth?
The old being destroyed by fire and remade rather than renewed.
And the destructive fire used to accomplish this.
The elements will melt in the heat, destroyed by fire.
"The heavens will disappear with a roar..." (2Pet.3:10 see below)

Though interestingly, 2Pet.3:10 says:
"...the earth and everything done in it..." (see bold red)
But listed as only one aspect.

Isaiah 65:17
“See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

 

[Wrangler]

How could any scripture "violate" Universalism?.

There you go. One cannot answer a question with a question. Your refusal to answer questions about your belief shows that you are not honest in your quest of posting here in this thread. That's too bad.

Have you ever heard of Post-Modernism? Do you realize how you are using its tenets in what you've posted?

 

[Wrangler]

What about the New Heavens and New Earth?
The old being destroyed by fire and remade rather than renewed.

I'm not sure what you are asking. The Scriptures you cite refer to things not souls. It seems like you only want to talk about verses that support your position while ignoring Scripture that goes against your position, supporting Universalism. There are Scripture that talk about our souls, our bodies.

That's how it will be when our bodies are raised to life. These bodies will die, but the bodies that are raised will live forever.
1 Corinthians 15:42 (CEV)

 

[Saint Steven]

There you go. One cannot answer a question with a question. Your refusal to answer questions about your belief shows that you are not honest in your quest of posting here in this thread. That's too bad.

Have you ever heard of Post-Modernism? Do you realize how you are using its tenets in what you've posted?

Sometimes a question is the wrong question.

The scripture you asked about (Jn.3:16) tells us that believers "...shall not perish but have eternal life."

Universalism tells us this "eternal life" is not eternal, but only age-during. (temporary)
And that unbelievers will receive it eventually as well. Therefore claiming that unbelievers shall not perish but have the same eternal (age-during) life as believers. This is how Universalism stands in contrast to the gospel.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure what you are asking. The Scriptures you cite refer to things not souls. It seems like you only want to talk about verses that support your position while ignoring Scripture that goes against your position, supporting Universalism. There are Scripture that talk about our souls, our bodies.

That's how it will be when our bodies are raised to life. These bodies will die, but the bodies that are raised will live forever.
1 Corinthians 15:42 (CEV)

Are you claiming that 1Cor.15:42 is in reference to all of humanity? Not just believers?

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

2 Corinthians 5:4
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

 

[Saint Steven]

How does Universalism effect the message of the gospel?
It seems to bring the words in bold into question.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The same is true for the other four references given originally. @Wrangler

 

[Lazarus Short]

Man's sense of justice is all about getting even, punishing the wicked criminal, and if your sense of justice is really well-honed, you consider recompense for the victim, making the criminal pay.

God's sense of justice is even better honed, sharper than ANY two-edged sword. In response to all the crimes and sins of the entire world, His justice was to send His Own Son to die for our benefit, and to begin to defeat sin and death.

God's justice is light years and a quantum leap beyond our retributive justice, which too often is only a "just-us" system.

So...do you still think God will toss you into eternal conscious torment FOREVER for the transgressions of a mere lifetime?

 

[Saint Steven]

Man's sense of justice is all about getting even, punishing the wicked criminal, and if your sense of justice is really well-honed, you consider recompense for the victim, making the criminal pay.

God's sense of justice is even better honed, sharper than ANY two-edged sword. In response to all the crimes and sins of the entire world, His justice was to send His Own Son to die for our benefit, and to begin to defeat sin and death.

God's justice is light years and a quantum leap beyond our retributive justice, which too often is only a "just-us" system.

So...do you still think God will toss you into eternal conscious torment FOREVER for the transgressions of a mere lifetime?

It seems that our justice system is based on the law God gave to the Israelites.
The "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" law that saw a man stoned to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. Which was then commemorated with tassels to be worn on their garments, lest they forget. Numbers 15:32-41

 

[HatGuy]

It seems that our justice system is based on the law God gave to the Israelites.
The "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" law that saw a man stoned to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. Which was then commemorated with tassels to be worn on their garments, lest they forget. Numbers 15:32-41

Yeah that's fine for State law though, but Jesus tells us that His people (the Church) ought to turn the other cheek, etc.

The question is why God does not do the same. The answer is He did - on the cross. But what kind of victory did that win?

On the cross, Jesus was the victor over Satan, sin, and death, right? (Some say even the victor over the Law.)

I'll tell you what made me consider Universalism. It was when I was lying in bed in fear one night about whether my two kids would be saved, and if they did not accept Jesus, how they would go to hell - either to be annihilated or for eternal torment. I began to realise that this meant that death still has a sting over me as a believer. It's all fair and well that I go to heaven, but those I love might not, and so for all eternity death still has a last word over me, even a believer.

But I realised that the Bible tells me death does not have the last word, and does not even have a sting any more. It tells me that love conquers all. It tells me that Jesus's victory over death was real and complete, not half done. So therefore, the only reasonable explanation for this is to realise that God won't ever let death have the last word, just like He says, and even death is not enough to separate Him from those He loves. And if I love the unsaved, which I do, surely He does too? The only possible explanation for hell under all this is it is part of His salvation plan. And there for, reluctantly, I realised I could not believe the entire Bible unless I actually accepted some sort of Universalist position.

Hope that makes sense. It seems to me under all the other models, death still wins, even over a believer, who must see their loved ones die forever.

 

[Wrangler]

Sometimes a question is the wrong question..

Indeed. Any humility in you asking the wrong questions or does that only pertain to us universalists?

The scripture you asked about (Jn.3:16) tells us that believers "...shall not perish but have eternal life."

Universalism tells us this "eternal life" is not eternal, but only age-during. (temporary).

Wrong! You do not grasp that you create a Strawman then knock it down in triumph. In the short time I've been here, I've seen you do this time and again.

Putting aside universalism, Scripture tells us that all have eternal life. Scripture tells us that death and even "second death" are actually misnomers. Everyone is resurrected. Some go to the Lake of Fire (for eternal punishment). Is this not so?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah that's fine for State law though, but Jesus tells us that His people (the Church) ought to turn the other cheek, etc.

The question is why God does not do the same. The answer is He did - on the cross. But what kind of victory did that win?

On the cross, Jesus was the victor over Satan, sin, and death, right? (Some say even the victor over the Law.)

I'll tell you what made me consider Universalism. It was when I was lying in bed in fear one night about whether my two kids would be saved, and if they did not accept Jesus, how they would go to hell - either to be annihilated or for eternal torment. I began to realise that this meant that death still has a sting over me as a believer. It's all fair and well that I go to heaven, but those I love might not, and so for all eternity death still has a last word over me, even a believer.

But I realised that the Bible tells me death does not have the last word, and does not even have a sting any more. It tells me that love conquers all. It tells me that Jesus's victory over death was real and complete, not half done. So therefore, the only reasonable explanation for this is to realise that God won't ever let death have the last word, just like He says, and even death is not enough to separate Him from those He loves. And if I love the unsaved, which I do, surely He does too? The only possible explanation for hell under all this is it is part of His salvation plan. And there for, reluctantly, I realised I could not believe the entire Bible unless I actually accepted some sort of Universalist position.

Hope that makes sense. It seems to me under all the other models, death still wins, even over a believer, who must see their loved ones die forever.

Thanks for your response.
Universalism has an obvious appeal to it. And I hope you guys are right.
Simply think differently and hell vanishes in thin air. (happy, happy)
But that's not usually how things work.

 

[Saint Steven]

...Scripture tells us that all have eternal life. ... Is this not so?

No, that is not correct.
We were just looking at Jn.3:16 which says believers have eternal life, not everyone.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Saint Steven]

Indeed. Any humility in you asking the wrong questions or does that only pertain to us universalists?

It only applies to you who are smart enough to know better. I am absolved for obvious reasons. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

You do not grasp that you create a Strawman then knock it down in triumph. In the short time I've been here, I've seen you do this time and again.

Could you stop with the demeaning comments and stay on topic?

 

[Wrangler]

It only applies to you who are smart enough to know better. I am absolved for obvious reasons. - lol

So, asking the wrong questions only apply to other people in practice,

Sad that you want double standards in these exchanges.

Could you stop with the demeaning comments and stay on topic?

See above demeaning point YOU are making.

Seriously, your posts are one form of arrogance after another! Asking questions but not answering them. Actually asserting "some" questions are wrong rather than answer a question, which is another way of asserting you ask the right questions. In light of this, it is funny to read you want others to stop demeaning comments. LOL