The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Hillsage]

@Hillsage
The question was asked earlier about how inappropriate it is (something like that) to claim that God would put people in the fire of "hell" for all eternity with no hope of escape.

Couldn't we apply the same principle to ten minutes? Granted it's not eternal, nor without hope of escape. But even one minute in hell might SEEM like an eternity. Did not Hitler give his victims at least one minute of "hell"? (gas chamber) Sorry, I know that is a horrible thought. Not sure how else to frame this.

I totally agree, ten minutes of sadistic torture is still sadistic torture. That's why we need a better definition of so many words that make it sound like God is a sadistic Hitler running an eternal gulag. As to Hitler "giving one minute of torture in the gas chamber" I'd say no, those gulags were a living hell and the gas chamber was actually a release from their continual tortured life.
But even death in the gas chamber was something that not even GOD will do for ALL His ETERNAL HELL TORTURED souls that Jesus died for.

If the punishment was to extract a confession, one wouldn't need to be there long to be compliant to whatever your torturer wanted. One would think that even the prospect of being bound hand and foot to be thrown into such a place would release the desired confession. But I suppose this would not happen if a sentence needed to be carried out. Who will judge such cases to determine the appropriate sentence?

An 'extracted confession' doesn't make one any more 'guilty or innocent', it would just add a 'lie to manipulate or control the torture', to the list. God is our judge and He is no torturer fitting the description of the Hell taught by the church. And I'm pretty sure GOD would know an 'extracted confession' to get release from torture.

Question; when God tells us to "ALWAYS FORGIVE OR WE WON'T BE FORGIVEN' do you believe he holds us to a higher standard than He will live up to? What does God really think about burning children which HE HAS FORMED IN THE MOTHER'S womb?

LEV 18:21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

DEU 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination
to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and
their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

So scripture itself reveals what God thinks about burning children to death, but HE is just fine burning His created children ETERNALLY instead of just mercifully burning them to death is a minute.

Is it not the saints that will determine such things? Will it be my job (assuming) and yours to sentence souls to time in "hell"? Measured how? In years? Minutes? Seconds? Millenniums? Eons? -- I suppose these questions are rhetorical, because we don't know the answers.

I 'hope to God' that it isn't up to 'the church' to decide such things. Bloody Queen Mary justified burning Protestants alive at the stake based upon what the church teaches. Her justification was basically; "They're going to burn in hell for eternity so we're just helping them get started right now." IOW...Well done thou good an faithful....RELIGIOUS SPIRIT.

Revelation 14:10
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury/thumos, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented/basanizo with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

I'm just going to spend the time dealing with this one verse because what you post today you have posted ad nauseum before, with always the same explanation. Verses which I always answer the same way. I translated them the way the Greek meant without the ETERNAL HELL tweaking of the scribes.

First off, how do you make "wine"? You must 'crush the grapes'. Is God going to make wine out of the LOST? HELLO. Only the nominal church thinks we 'saints' are supposed be raisins, I guess. Why do connoisseur people make wine? Because they have a "passion" for it. Want to know the STRONG'S definition of "FURY"?

2372 thumos: passion (as if breathing hard)

So tell me Steve, when you were younger , did the wife and you express "FURY" when breathing hard in sex? Or did you call it "passion"? IOW Yes! God has a passion for ALL of US concerning sin. Whether He is dealing with Saved sinners or Unsaved sinners.

0928 basanizo: to torture
Read this very same Greek word basanizo in every other verse of the bible. That's simply bible 101. And also a 'point' which I've already pointed out to you before. But I'll elaborate even more this time.

The word “torment/torture” needs study. In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented (Matt. 8:6). It is used of the disciples' ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves” (Matt. 14:24). It is translated by the word “toiling” in Mark 6:48. It is translated by the word “vexed'” in speaking of Lot (2Pet. 2:8). It is translated as a word that means “birth-pains” (Rev. 12:2). Would any of these come anywhere close to the SCRIBES description of ETERNAL HELL type torture/torment? I've paid money to compete in events as TORTURING and TORMENTING as the above verses indicate the word basanizo meaning.

But in the other Scriptures scribes translated as the word as “torment” or “tormented.” which better fits 'their theology' than it does consistency in translating.

Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth pang; and the grace of God will not be absent.

Now we'll deal with that horrible fear of "burning sulfur" as God is torturing us. Sulfur was used historically as a 'purifier and a preserver'. GOOGLE it as I did years ago. Guess what in biblical times NO ONE WAS EVER TORTURED WITH SULFUR It was used as a PRESERVATIVE or a PURGATIVE. Check your next purchase of 'dried apricots'....yep sulfur to preserve the freshness. Oh, and what did they pour into the wounds in WW1...sulfur. Did it burn? I don't know. But I do remember hating tincture of iodine burning me when my MOM TORTURED ME after I stupidly cut myself with my pocket knife.

Define these terms above in the context of a loving God and they mean something wholly different than the historically EXCRUCIATING TORTURING GOD of orthodoxy.....since 500 AD.

 

[Saint Steven]

Question; when God tells us to "ALWAYS FORGIVE OR WE WON'T BE FORGIVEN' do you believe he holds us to a higher standard than He will live up to? What does God really think about burning children which HE HAS FORMED IN THE MOTHER'S womb?

LEV 18:21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

DEU 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination
to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and
their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

So scripture itself reveals what God thinks about burning children to death, but HE is just fine burning His created children ETERNALLY instead of just mercifully burning them to death is a minute.

This is something I was thinking about but didn't have time to include.
Little ones who were aborted, or are under the age of accountability. (assuming)
At the same time I am amazed at how young some little ones come to the Lord.
I was eight years old, but I've heard of many at four or five years old.

I guess I never thought of the forgiveness thing applying to God.
But by whom would he not be forgiven? Or better put, in what situation would it matter?

 

[Saint Steven]

...And this doctrine is not included, for it is not from above, but from below. ...

If it is from below, then it must serve the kingdom of darkness in some way. How so?

Do you disagree completely, or are there some aspects you agree with?
- Do you believe that Christ died for all of humankind?
- Do you believe God will restore all things?
- Do you believe hell is eternal?
- If so, what does it consist of?

 

[Saint Steven]

@Hillsage
I find this scripture to be fascinating.
And I have wondered for some time about the nature of it. Maybe this gives us some clues about the curative fire we have been talking about.

In earthly terms, having a live coal put on your mouth/lips would be a horrible thing.
But that doesn't seem to be what is happening here. What's your take on this?

Isaiah 6:5-7
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

 

[Hillsage]

This is something I was thinking about but didn't have time to include.
Little ones who were aborted, or are under the age of accountability. (assuming)
At the same time I am amazed at how young some little ones come to the Lord.
I was eight years old, but I've heard of many at four or five years old.

I was taught growing up in the "One, True, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church whose roots go back to Peter" Church, that if you didn't baptize your baby into 'the faith/church' and he died. He was not saved. Read and think about the history of the CHURCH YOU ALL have doctrinal roots from, in this article below.[/QUOTE]

'Do Unbaptized Babies Go To Limbo?
Limbo is a theory developed by Medieval theologians as the place where unbaptized persons go when they die. Limbo is not an official doctrine of the Catholic Church, but it has not been officially rejected by the Church.[widgets_on_pages id="In Post Ad"]

The quandary goes something like this. If we are born with original sin and an infant dies before baptism, will he or she go to hell?

This is an interesting quandary. We know that we are born with original sin. We also know that baptism is necessary for salvation. St. Peter says, “Baptism now saves you” (1 Peter 3:21). Through baptism the stain of original sin is removed and we are made children of God. Yet, if an infant with original sin dies, does he or she go to hell? A person who dies in a state of sin and without the graces of baptism may not enter heaven. However, infants are not guilty of sin. After all, they have not committed personal sin. Original sin is inherited, it is not a choice made by the infant to turn away from God. Infants do not have the capability to choose to sin. Is it possible that God would send these innocent children to hell? And if not, without the graces of baptism, can they go to heaven?

History of the Theory of Limbo
In response to Pelagius (d. 425), who taught that the heresy that baptism is not necessary for salvation (called Pelagianism), St. Augustine (d. 430) contended that unbaptized children who die are condemned to hell. They do not suffer all its pains because they are not guilty of personal sin, but because baptism is necessary for salvation, they will not enter heaven.

Later theologians, in the Middle Ages, posited the existence of limbo as a way to soften the harshness of St. Augustine’s position. Unlike the state of quasi-hell posited by St. Augustine, these theologians defined limbo as a quasi-heaven. Limbo was considered to be a place or state of where unbaptized persons enjoy a natural state of happiness. These people experience every natural happiness, but they remain excluded from the Beatific Vision of God in heaven. Some incorrectly identify this limbo with the hell of the Apostle’s Creed where, according to tradition, Christ spent the interval between Good Friday and Easter Sunday."

FWI that same 'church father' AUGUSTINE, is also the LATIN scholar of the RC church, but who wasn't a GREEK scholar, that gave the definition of ETERNITY to the Greek word AIONIOS. Too bad some other 'medieval theologians' couldn't tolerate 'the harshness of St. Augustine" position' on ETERNAL PURPOSELESS TORTURE AN EARTHLY FIRE BURNING HELL. Augustine gave that definition with the authority of ROME in order to break the 400 year fight about Ultimate Reconciliation/Universalism held with the majority of the schools of religion in the church world of that day.

 

[Hillsage]

@Hillsage
I find this scripture to be fascinating.
And I have wondered for some time about the nature of it. Maybe this gives us some clues about the curative fire we have been talking about.

In earthly terms, having a live coal put on your mouth/lips would be a horrible thing.
But that doesn't seem to be what is happening here. What's your take on this?

Isaiah 6:5-7
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

My take is exactly what we've been trying to convince you of all along. That the metaphorical fire of our God is purgative even as the Greek word for fire is etymologically defined;

4442 pur: "fire" (literally or figuratively., spec. lightning)

And it is that same '∫' purpose that our God has as "Our God is a consuming fire", "lake of fire", "salt every man with fire", "baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire".

Metaphorically, the fire of God is no more literally earthly fire, than the wind of the SPIRIT is literally oxygen.

You're 'sounding' a lot more reasonable....well...maybe not A LOT, but definitely feeling a better spirit here Steve.

 

[Saint Steven]

First off, how do you make "wine"? You must 'crush the grapes'. Is God going to make wine out of the LOST? HELLO. Only the nominal church thinks we 'saints' are supposed be raisins, I guess. Why do connoisseur people make wine? Because they have a "passion" for it. Want to know the STRONG'S definition of "FURY"?

2372 thumos: passion (as if breathing hard)

So tell me Steve, when you were younger , did the wife and you express "FURY" when breathing hard in sex? Or did you call it "passion"? IOW Yes! God has a passion for ALL of US concerning sin. Whether He is dealing with Saved sinners or Unsaved sinners.

0928 basanizo: to torture
Read this very same Greek word basanizo in every other verse of the bible. That's simply bible 101. And also a 'point' which I've already pointed out to you before. But I'll elaborate even more this time.

The word “torment/torture” needs study. In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented (Matt. 8:6). It is used of the disciples' ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves” (Matt. 14:24). It is translated by the word “toiling” in Mark 6:48. It is translated by the word “vexed'” in speaking of Lot (2Pet. 2:8). It is translated as a word that means “birth-pains” (Rev. 12:2). Would any of these come anywhere close to the SCRIBES description of ETERNAL HELL type torture/torment? I've paid money to compete in events as TORTURING and TORMENTING as the above verses indicate the word basanizo meaning.

But in the other Scriptures scribes translated as the word as “torment” or “tormented.” which better fits 'their theology' than it does consistency in translating.

Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth pang; and the grace of God will not be absent.

I usually take what you give me on these word studies.
I don't have great resources to reference such things to make a rebuttal.
And am not terribly interested in getting more into that anyway.

That being said, it seems you missed the mark on this one. I compared two versions below from the NIV and the Young's Literal Translation. I don't see how we can get around all the references to fury, wrath, anger, full strength/unmixed, fire and brimstone. Seems to be too much of an uphill battle on this one.

Revelation 14:10 NIV
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:10 Young's Literal Translation
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

 

[Wrangler]

The question was asked earlier about how inappropriate it is (something like that) to claim that God would put people in the fire of "hell" for all eternity with no hope of escape.

Couldn't we apply the same principle to ten minutes? Granted it's not eternal, nor without hope of escape.

Do you not recognize how you answered your own question. As I see purgatory, it is not about a length of time as much as a degree of purity. So, the time has not only hope but purpose.

 

[Saint Steven]

Augustine gave that definition with the authority of ROME in order to break the 400 year fight about Ultimate Reconciliation/Universalism held with the majority of the schools of religion in the church world of that day.

I guess that answers my question about the NT Greek Lexicon.

 

[Hillsage]

I usually take what you give me on these word studies.
I don't have great resources to reference such things to make a rebuttal.
And am not terribly interested in getting more into that anyway.

That being said, it seems you missed the mark on this one. I compared two versions below from the NIV and the Young's Literal Translation. I don't see how we can get around all the references to fury, wrath, anger, full strength/unmixed, fire and brimstone. Seems to be too much of an uphill battle on this one.

Revelation 14:10 NIV
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:10 Young's Literal Translation
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

I missed nothing. Read 'in depth' what I've read/studied too long ago to turn into cookie dough Steve.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you not recognize how you answered your own question.

Of course not. We both know that I am stupid. Did you forget?

 

[Saint Steven]

As I see purgatory, it is not about a length of time as much as a degree of purity. So, the time has not only hope but purpose.

So, what do you imagine is going on there?

 

[Hillsage]

I guess that answers my question about the NT Greek Lexicon.

Yes it does. And I looked for the reference that taught me that but couldn't find it. It is somewhere in my 'library'. But I wouldn't have quoted that, if I didn't think it was from an non-reputable source.

 

[Gup20]

An ongoing campaign

The Campaign to Eliminate Hell

HELL ISN’T AS popular as it used to be.

Over the last 20 years, the number of Americans who believe in the fiery down under has dropped from 71 percent to 58 percent. Heaven, by contrast, fares much better and, among Christians, remains an almost universally accepted concept.

Underlying these statistics is a conundrum that continues to tug at the conscience of some Christians, who find it difficult to reconcile the existence of a just, loving God with a doctrine that dooms billions of people to eternal punishment.

"Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die," wrote the late Clark Pinnock, an influential evangelical theologian.

While religious philosophers have argued over the true nature of hell since the earliest days of Christianity, the debate has become especially pronounced in recent decades among the millions of Americans who identify themselves as evangelicals. The once taboo topic is being openly discussed as well-regarded scholars publish articles and best-selling books that rely on careful readings of Scripture to challenge traditional views.

A simple mental exercise can put the question of Hell’s morality to rest.

Consider the moral implications of an action: killing a living creature. If you kill an ant, most people would agree there is very little immoral about that action. But what about killing a family’s much beloved dog? Is this the same or worse than killing an ant? It is orders of magnitude worse (morally) than killing the ant. What about killing a person? The same or worse than killing a dog? Again this is orders of magnitude worse than killing a dog. So we can understand that the same action - killing a living creature - changes in morality based on whom the action is committed against.

Now consider sin - an action against an infinite being... the very being who created you & gave you life. That action would necessarily be an infinitely evil act. The only justice for an infinitely evil act is an infinite punishment because of who God is. So we can absolutely see that everlasting torment in hell, and subsequently the lake of fire, is not only justifiable, but it is the ONLY punishment just enough to fit the crime.

 

[FineLinen]

A simple mental exercise can put the question of Hell’s morality to rest.

Consider the moral implications of an action: killing a living creature. If you kill an ant, most people would agree there is very little immoral about that action. But what about killing a family’s much beloved dog? Is this the same or worse than killing an ant? It is orders of magnitude worse (morally) than killing the ant. What about killing a person? The same or worse than killing a dog? Again this is orders of magnitude worse than killing a dog. So we can understand that the same action - killing a living creature - changes in morality based on whom the action is committed against.

Now consider sin - an action against an infinite being... the very being who created you & gave you life. That action would necessarily be an infinitely evil act. The only justice for an infinitely evil act is an infinite punishment because of who God is. So we can absolutely see that everlasting torment in hell, and subsequently the lake of fire, is not only justifiable, but it is the ONLY punishment just enough to fit the crime.

Dear Gup: That, my friend is absolute NONSENSE!

In the first place the entire mass in Adam1 "were made sinners", that identical mass in the Last Adam are "made righteous."

Further, there is no such animal as an "infinite evil act">>>>one sin makes you guilty of all!

The Infinite Being is called Father, Abba in a more intimate term.

“If man had his way, the plan of redemption would be an endless and bloody conflict. In reality, salvation was bought not by Jesus' fist, but by His nail-pierced hands; not by muscle but by love; not by vengeance but by forgiveness; not by force but by sacrifice. Jesus Christ our Lord surrendered in order that He might win; He destroyed His enemies by dying for them and conquered death by allowing death to conquer Him.” -A.W. Tozer-

 

[Gup20]

Dear Gup: That, my friend is absolute NONSENSE!

In the first place the entire mass in Adam1 "were made sinners", that identical mass in the Last Adam are "made righteous."

Further, there is no such animal as an "infinite evil act">>>>one sin makes you guilty of all!

The Infinite Being is called Father, Abba in a more intimate term.

Friend, your comment seems predicated on a commitment to a worldview who’s goal is to change the plain truth of scripture to conform with its own presuppositions.

Daniel 12:2 (NASB) "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

Are you saying the Hebrew word `owlam does not mean everlasting? If so you would have to be advocating for a temporary version of everlasting life as well as Daniel uses the same word in both phrases of the same verse.

In contrast, we see that while Adam’s judgment was universal, the great white throne judgment is not universal, but rather individual... with each person being individually named and judged.

Repealing Adam’s judgment would absolutely have a universal affect, which is what Romans 5:19 is talking about. This does not exclude the individual judgments to follow, but simply suggests a conclusion to the universal judgment of Adam.

 

[FineLinen]

Friend, your comment seems predicated on a commitment to a worldview who’s goal is to change the plain truth of scripture to conform with its own presuppositions.

Dear Gup: My worldview is the following>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

God is the ta panta, Source, Guide, & Goal of the all

​

 

[Gup20]

Dear Gup: My worldview is the following>>>>

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

God is the ta panta, Source, Guide, & Goal of the all

​

Those in chains will know God’s Lordship, of that we can be sure.

And yes, all of creation will be restored when Adam’s judgment is abolished... the curses on the ground, animals, plants, and man are all contained in Adam’s universal judgement. That doesn’t mean there won’t subsequently be individual judgments to follow... especially since we are told it will happen.

Yes, the resurrection is universal. This restores all of creation (including the lost) from Adam’s universal judgment. But then a second judgement follows & those without faith in the gospel will experience a second judgement... a second, everlasting death.

 

[Saint Steven]

"HELL ISN’T AS popular as it used to be." - National Geographic

Hmm... that's odd.
Attendance has been increasing steadily. - lol

 

[FineLinen]

Those in chains will know God’s Lordship, of that we can be sure.

And yes, all of creation will be restored when Adam’s judgment is abolished... the curses on the ground, animals, plants, and man are all contained in Adam’s universal judgement. That doesn’t mean there won’t subsequently be individual judgments to follow... especially since we are told it will happen.

Yes, the resurrection is universal. This restores all of creation (including the lost) from Adam’s universal judgment. But then a second judgement follows & those without faith in the gospel will experience a second judgement... a second, everlasting death.

Good grief Gup! All thanatos ends in the One who swallows it. Every last stinking bit of it ends in the One who makes all things new. The ending is the beginning, the beginning is the ending. Yup, the Lord of ta panta prevails!