Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Wordkeeper]

We can't buy God's grace, but what must we do to receive it, and what is it anyway.

Loyal response. Believing, agreeing. Can be perfected by showing with a deed. Plain speech, we are in his good books .

 

[Hollow Man]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Long story made short, sin can damage out communion with God, but never our union with God.

Clearly, Luther is speaking hyperbolically. He's right, though. Committing sin does not negate the promises or faithfulness of God. However, that we commit ongoing sin may be an indication that one is not in Christ to begin with and, so, would have no claim to the promises of Christ.

Although all sin is offensive to God, the Bible does seem to make a distinction between men who sin in a momentary moral lapse, those who are warring against a besetting sin, and those who have returned to a sinful lifestyle, committing ongoing and unrepentant sin.

If you're a Christian who sins, that you sin should be no surprise. The Word of God tells us we will sin and reassures us that when we do sin, we have no less an advocate than Christ, Himself.

So my question would be, what is your attitude toward your sin? Are you working to bring that sin into submission to Christ? What does your ongoing sanctification in that area look like? Is it growing? Is it dead?

If you are born again, then the faithfulness and competency of Christ to keep your salvation is iron clad.

So, if you are a Christian who finds yourself in sin, confess your sin, meditate on God's word, put your helmet on, and get back in the game.

 

[Phil W]

Give Scripture where the benefits of grace were healing. Grace is a counterpoint to law, the first one a benign relationship, the second a contract with strict terms and conditions.

Are not all the "benefits" of God given by His graceful mercy?
I can't compartmentalize grace to one or two functions, but describe it as the attitude of God...whether to us or for us, it is a manifestation of His mercy.

I buy lunch for the home-less guy, by the grace of God.
I work at a food-bank, by the grace of God.
I have escaped car wrecks, by the grace of God.
Isn't all of God's mercy to/for us done gracefully?

 

[Phil W]

Long story made short, sin can damage out communion with God, but never our union with God.

Clearly, Luther is speaking hyperbolically. He's right, though. Committing sin does not negate the promises or faithfulness of God. However, that we commit ongoing sin may be an indication that one is not in Christ to begin with and, so, would have no claim to the promises of Christ.

Although all sin is offensive to God, the Bible does seem to make a distinction between men who sin in a momentary moral lapse, those who are warring against a besetting sin, and those who have returned to a sinful lifestyle, committing ongoing and unrepentant sin.

If you're a Christian who sins, that you sin should be no surprise. The Word of God tells us we will sin and reassures us that when we do sin, we have no less an advocate than Christ, Himself.

So my question would be, what is your attitude toward your sin? Are you working to bring that sin into submission to Christ? What does your ongoing sanctification in that area look like? Is it growing? Is it dead?

If you are born again, then the faithfulness and competency of Christ to keep your salvation is iron clad.

So, if you are a Christian who finds yourself in sin, confess your sin, meditate on God's word, put your helmet on, and get back in the game.

That is counter to so many scriptures...
For instance 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
And Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[Hollow Man]

That is counter to so many scriptures...

For instance 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

And Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

How does anything I've said contradict those verses, particularly when I even referred to 1 John 3:9-10 and said that ongoing, unrepentant sin may be a sign we're not saved? Have you ever considered posting all of a passage, instead of just parts? Seems like that would be the honest way to go.

 

[CharismaticLady]

How does anything I've said contradict those verses, particularly when I even referred to 1 John 3:9-10 and said that ongoing, unrepentant sin may be a sign we're not saved? Have you ever considered posting all of a passage, instead of just parts? Seems like that would be the honest way to go.

I agree with Phil.

(deleted remainder as it is in wrong forum.)

 

[Hollow Man]

I agree with Phil.

Then maybe you can help him find some verses to contradict what I said. Because he seems to be having some trouble with that.

Even though you said that "ongoing, unrepentant sin may be a sign we're not saved," which is true, how can you even say "may be"?

Because it may be. Or it may not be. I, and, more importantly, YOU have no way to know what's in a person's heart or where their walk with Christ is.

Just by you agreeing with Luther and saying sin doesn't separate us from God, let's us know you haven't understood scripture anymore than he did, or what Jesus came to do.

Thanks for the unprovoked personal attacks.

Funny that you say I don't understand scripture, while you don't know that Romans 8 says "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Adam's willful sin separated us from God, and still will.

This is where a little reading comprehension would have helped you. The OP isn't talking about Adam's sin. He's talking about our sin.

Jesus came to TAKE AWAY the barrier which is willful sin. To still willfully sin means your father is not God, but still the devil.

Did you know that 1 John says that if you have no sin, the truth is not in you? Does this mean the truth is not in you?

Yes, Jesus is our Advocate, but if you notice, not for sin that requires repentance. 1 John 1:7 shows us the type of sin that is automatically cleansed by our Advocate, and those are only committed while walking in the Spirit. IOW unintentional trespasses, or sins NOT unto death 1 John 5:16-17. Leviticus 5:15.

No, the text doesn't say "unintentional sin".

There are some who should know better that claim "sin is sin." We need to see sin as God does. And God made a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sin. Numbers 15:22-36.

So, Christ's atonement only covers sinners who sin accidentally? Thanks, but I think I'll stick with the Gospel.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Then maybe you can help him find some verses to contradict what I said. Because he seems to be having some trouble with that.



Because it may be. Or it may not be. I, and, more importantly, YOU have no way to know what's in a person's heart or where their walk with Christ is.



Thanks for the unprovoked personal attacks.

Funny that you say I don't understand scripture, while you don't know that Romans 8 says "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."



This is where a little reading comprehension would have helped you. The OP isn't talking about Adam's sin. He's talking about our sin.



Did you know that 1 John says that if you have no sin, the truth is not in you? Does this mean the truth is not in you?



No, the text doesn't say "unintentional sin".



So, Christ's atonement only covers sinners who sin accidentally? Thanks, but I think I'll stick with the Gospel.

I agree with Phil. I'm not addressing the rest as this is a "beginner's" forum - milk, and not meat.

 

[Hollow Man]

I agree with Phil.

Then you two can be wrong together.

Funny how you wanted to address it before, but then, after you were corrected, "Oh, I can't. This is a beginners' forum."

 

[CharismaticLady]

Then you two can be wrong together.

Funny how you wanted to address it before, but then, after you were corrected, "Oh, I can't. This is a beginners' forum."

No one corrected me. But when I checked the forum, it was "General Theology" for beginners, and I thought I shouldn't get into controversy with someone who may be a novice.

 

[Hollow Man]

No one corrected me.

Actually, I did.

But when I checked the forum, it was "General Theology" for beginners, and I thought I shouldn't get into controversy with someone who may be a novice.

Nope. No novice here. I have degrees from both SBTS and WTS and have been in ministry for twenty-five years. You?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually, I did.



Nope. No novice here. I have degrees from both SBTS and WTS and have been in ministry for twenty-five years. You?

If you study the teachings of man, like Luther, you can make the plain word of God to say anything. I came out of denominationalism 49 years ago. Do you teach cessatonism or continualism?

 

[Hollow Man]

If you study the teachings of man, like Luther

I quoted scripture to back up what I said several times. I never even mentioned Luther.

Do you teach cessatonism or continualism?

I believe God's Word is not lacking anything and does not need to be supplemented by gibberish, Unbiblical "prophesy" or rolling around on the floor and barking like dogs.

What, specifically, do you believe the Word of God is lacking that you believe you have to supplement it with those things?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I quoted scripture to back up what I said several times. I never even mentioned Luther.



I believe God's Word is not lacking anything and does not need to be supplemented by gibberish, Unbiblical "prophesy" or rolling around on the floor and barking like dogs.

What, specifically, do you believe the Word of God is lacking that you believe you have to supplement it with those things?

I rest my case. Psalms 1

 

[CharismaticLady]

Clearly, Luther is speaking hyperbolically. He's right, though. Committing sin does not negate the promises or faithfulness of God.

Never mentioned Luther?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Suppertime!

 

[ViaCrucis]

No one corrected me. But when I checked the forum, it was "General Theology" for beginners, and I thought I shouldn't get into controversy with someone who may be a novice.

General Theology, as in, covering just about all topics. There are more specialized boards for discussing certain finer theological topics.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hollow Man]

Never mentioned Luther?

Yep. All I said about Luther was that he was speaking hyperbolically and that his statement was consistent with Romans 8:38-39. I did not base even one of my arguments on Luther or Luther's writings. I cited scripture for every point. And that's when you decided to run away.

Now, you're not even addressing the substance of my posts or my correction of your heresies. You're just bickering.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yep. All I said about Luther was that he was speaking hyperbolically and that his statement was consistent with Romans 8:38-39. I did not base even one of my arguments on Luther or Luther's writings. I cited scripture for every point. And that's when you decided to run away.

Now, you're not even addressing the substance of my posts or my correction of your heresies. You're just bickering.

This forum is General Theology, not Controversial Theology. Be careful who you call a heretic. Remember you've got more fingers pointing back at you.

 

[fhansen]

Sorry for the long delay-got sidetracked by a few obstacles along the way lately.

Yes, he is. He may doubt his salvation. He may question God. He may still struggle to overcome his sin; but IF he has indeed been justified in eternity; he can not loose his salvation.

But that’s redundant. Of course the elect will be saved, but knowing who they are is another story.

John 6:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Now to say one could lose their salvation is to call Christ a liar.

Ok, but as I said, we can’t know with perfect certainty just who they are anyway. It would be naïve to think that everyone who heard those words, whether at the time or between then and now, and applied them to themselves were/are necessarily saved. And as you said some may doubt their salvation, perhaps rightfully, while, according to scripture some will be confident of it- while the Lord won’t be.

Making your calling and election sure, is akin to "examine yourselves as to if you are in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5) The "check yourself" is to the end that you know whether or not these things are true as they pertain to your own soul.

One is raised from spiritual death before they respond to the call, because they will not respond if not woken. Those who are woken inevitably heed the call because they are drawn to that end. Thus making Christ's statement true - He will lose nothing.

No, this destroys Christianity in fact, once the will is totally removed from the equation. And as I said it also makes all of human history pretty much an exercise in unnecessary pain and suffering. Fortunately, most Christians don’t actually walk that way regardless of profession.

And those who find themselves not growing, not heeding, not being transformed; if they pass from this world never having truly repented and coming to believe; they were never elect to begin with. This is why the warning is given to examine one's self. Whether or not our faith is genuine should be of utmost concern to us.

And eventually the believer comes to the point of rest in the great comfort that God is faithful, even when we screw it up. And we screw it up frequently enough that we should be aware that we screw it up!

And yet we must be on a course of righteousness, otherwise the cart goes way ahead of the horse; screwing up must be less and less a concern while Jesus triumphs over sin in us. Persistence in serious sin makes the gospel a joke, mocks God, opposes His Word, and is tantamount to unbelief, let alone failure to love. What would be the point otherwise in God saving anyone if the bottom line is that nothing changes.