Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Phil W]

There it is... it’s ambiguous. Paul had the Spiritual noogies ... to admit His works of the flesh... Even After Salvation... were Skubala.

Scripture, please.

 

[Phil W]

Can you show me an example of a person who has saving faith in Scripture?

The thief on the cross.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

no, but they will be chastised.

 

[Grip Docility]

Scripture, please.

The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

Philippians 3:8

 

[CharismaticLady]

My understanding is that glorification is the completed process of sanctification when we are finally made to be like Christ. I personally do not believe we can achieve glorification in this world.

Can you provide some scriptures on that. What I've found is sanctification seems to always be past tense, or what God will do to those who come to him, not a "process." But becoming like Jesus with the mind of Christ seems to me to be glorification. Same with holiness. Those to me mean during this journey on earth. I've always heard that sanctification is the "process" and yet I never found out who first taught it - like which church father taught that doctrine?

 

[Wordkeeper]

The thief on the cross.

OK. What about a New Covenant example?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They say we will die, that these bodies are not immortal, and must put on immortality, but nothing about sin. Paul tells us we are dead to sin. What do you think he meant by that. John says that Jesus came to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. Is he saying Now, or after we die?

God has said that the soul that sins it shall die. Also, the Scripture says that the wages of sin is death. So, if we are not sinners, then explain the fact that we all die? You see, the death being spoken of is physical death, so that the fact that we will all die, then we are all sinners to the day of our death. If a person says that they no sin in them, then they are saying that they are immortal and will not physically die.

 

[def]

Can you provide some scriptures on that. What I've found is sanctification seems to always be past tense, or what God will do to those who come to him, not a "process." But becoming like Jesus with the mind of Christ seems to me to be glorification. Same with holiness. Those to me mean during this journey on earth. I've always heard that sanctification is the "process" and yet I never found out who first taught it - like which church father taught that doctrine?

for glorification see 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[fhansen]

No choice is made from one who isn't willing.

Won't argue with that.

Yet one who's truly been raised doesn't say no. Man is passive in justification; since those who were justified were justified from the foundations of the world. Man is also passive in the spiritual resurrection from death to life. Man is not passive in his response to salvation; but his response comes after the action of God.

Once justified is he necessarily assured salvation? Or is man still passive in retaining his state of justice? In any case it'd be pretty hard to work out one's salvation or make one's calling and election sure if only passive.

In real life one is not regenerated first but rather one is called, drawn, appealed to, roused from their sleep. They cannot justify or save themselves; they must first be called in order to respond- but they can still refuse to heed the call. That, the ability to stay "no", is where man is not passive. And men can and do say "no" to the call of God-all the time. And after saying "yes" they can still later return to a "no" position, failing to persevere IOW.

Here you didn't read what I'd written very carefully. I never said it was "either or". I said one was a result of the other. Justification and being raised to spiritual life is the "horse". The individual responding to that resurrection is the "cart". Don't put the cart before the horse.

I don’t think I can put it strongly enough; presuming that one is certainly saved/numbered among the elect is to put the cart ahead of the horse.

And my distinction between either/or and both/and came in response to your maintaining that knowing Christ “is the consequence of all these other things being in place, not a prerequisite to them”. But in Christianity man must cooperate with grace, he must continuously make the decision to follow God, to strive, to do His will as He presents it, as we’re challenged, refined, tested. As we respond our knowledge of Him grows, and with that knowledge our love grows. We’re always challenged to participate so that the real justice God gives us in seedling form in the beginning increasingly becomes our own, and as it does we become more like Him, transformed into His image. At the end of the day Christianity is about love begetting love, and love always involves choice even as that choice must be helped along, with more grace needed in the beginning.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Once justified is he necessarily assured salvation?

Yes, he is. He may doubt his salvation. He may question God. He may still struggle to overcome his sin; but IF he has indeed been justified in eternity; he can not loose his salvation.

John 6:
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Now to say one could lose their salvation is to call Christ a liar.

In any case it'd be pretty hard to work out one's salvation or make one's calling and election sure if only passive.

Making your calling and election sure, is akin to "examine yourselves as to if you are in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5) The "check yourself" is to the end that you know whether or not these things are true as they pertain to your own soul.

In real life one is not regenerated first but rather one is called, drawn, appealed to, roused from their sleep. They cannot justify or save themselves; they must first be called in order to respond- but they can still refuse to heed the call. That, the ability to stay "no", is where man is not passive. And men can and do say "no" to the call of God-all the time. And after saying "yes" they can still later return to a "no" position, failing to persevere IOW.

One is raised from spiritual death before they respond to the call, because they will not respond if not woken. Those who are woken inevitably heed the call because they are drawn to that end. Thus making Christ's statement true - He will lose nothing.

But in Christianity man must cooperate with grace, he must continuously make the decision to follow God, to strive, to do His will as He presents it, as we’re challenged, refined, tested. As we respond our knowledge of Him grows, and with that knowledge our love grows. We’re always challenged to participate so that the real justice God gives us in seedling form in the beginning increasingly becomes our own, and as it does we become more like Him, transformed into His image. At the end of the day Christianity is about love begetting love, and love always involves choice even as that choice must be helped along, with more grace needed in the beginning.

And those who find themselves not growing, not heeding, not being transformed; if they pass from this world never having truly repented and coming to believe; they were never elect to begin with. This is why the warning is given to examine one's self. Whether or not our faith is genuine should be of utmost concern to us.

And eventually the believer comes to the point of rest in the great comfort that God is faithful, even when we screw it up. And we screw it up frequently enough that we should be aware that we screw it up!

 

[CharismaticLady]

And how exactly can that happen given that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and the fact that Jesus indicated that the issue of salvation is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ as he said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24?

That is a person who is walking in the Spirit full blast. But Paul warns us to not grieve the Spirit, and especially not quench the Spirit. He also warns us that if you go back to committing willful sins, you could go all the way back to perdition. Jesus has given us His Spirit to keep us from sinning, but has given us the responsibility to walk therein. We only have assurance if you abide in Jesus and keep His commandments through to the end. If we take this responsibility lightly, that is when Satan blinds us to the warnings.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God has said that the soul that sins it shall die. Also, the Scripture says that the wages of sin is death. So, if we are not sinners, then explain the fact that we all die? You see, the death being spoken of is physical death, so that the fact that we will all die, then we are all sinners to the day of our death. If a person says that they no sin in them, then they are saying that they are immortal and will not physically die.

Our spirits become immortal when we are born again of the Spirit, and we are promised that our bodies will also take on immortality once Jesus comes back. I don't know about you but I'll be glad to shed this ole' body of mine! Read John 8:34-36. What does Jesus free us from? The law to keep sinning, or from sin.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God has said that the soul that sins it shall die. Also, the Scripture says that the wages of sin is death. So, if we are not sinners, then explain the fact that we all die? You see, the death being spoken of is physical death, so that the fact that we will all die, then we are all sinners to the day of our death. If a person says that they no sin in them, then they are saying that they are immortal and will not physically die.

I would say, read Romans 6 and make a choice.

But first, are you talking about willful sins of lawlessness, or trespasses?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would say, read Romans 6 and make a choice.

But first, are you talking about willful sins of lawlessness, or trespasses?

I am not talking about individual sins, but our general sinfulness through Adam that we have to physically die. But because of our new life in Christ, our soul and spirit doesn't die, because they are born of God; but we are still sinners in our mortal bodies, and because of that, we have to die in order to be glorified.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am not talking about individual sins, but our general sinfulness through Adam that we have to physically die. But because of our new life in Christ, our soul and spirit doesn't die, because they are born of God; but we are still sinners in our mortal bodies, and because of that, we have to die in order to be glorified.

If you've read my posts you know I will disagree. What does our physical bodies have to do with committing sin? Nothing.

There are two meanings for the word, "flesh." One is our physical body, and the other is our carnal sin nature inherited from Adam. You believe we will always have our carnal nature, because our body dies, where I believe it is our nature that is reborn of the Spirit, and kills our taste for sin. That is why Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. Where does the Spirit dwell? In our nature. It is like taking the nature of a lion and making it into the nature of a lamb. You no longer want to kill everything that moves.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you've read my posts you know I will disagree. What does our physical bodies have to do with committing sin? Nothing.

There are two meanings for the word, "flesh." One is our physical body, and the other is our carnal sin nature inherited from Adam. You believe we will always have our carnal nature, where I believe it is our nature that is reborn of the Spirit. That is why Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. Where does the Spirit dwell? In our nature. It is like taking the nature of a lion and making it into the nature of a lamb. You no longer want to kill everything that moves.

The text is quite clear: "The soul that sins it shall die." That was God's warning in the garden of Eden: that if Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, they would die. And die they did. Because the sin that entered the world and every one of Adam's descendants, everyone has to die.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The text is quite clear: "The soul that sins it shall die." That was God's warning in the garden of Eden: that if Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, they would die. And die they did. Because the sin that entered the world and every one of Adam's descendants, everyone has to die.

Jesus gives those who He gives His Spirit to, eternal life. They are no longer a slave to sin, but to righteousness. No slave of sin has eternal life.

 

[def]

If you've read my posts you know I will disagree. What does our physical bodies have to do with committing sin? Nothing.

There are two meanings for the word, "flesh." One is our physical body, and the other is our carnal sin nature inherited from Adam. You believe we will always have our carnal nature, because our body dies, where I believe it is our nature that is reborn of the Spirit, and kills our taste for sin. That is why Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. Where does the Spirit dwell? In our nature. It is like taking the nature of a lion and making it into the nature of a lamb. You no longer want to kill everything that moves.

Paul talks about the war between the flesh and the spirit (Galatians 5), two separate forces. To win, Paul tells us to set our minds on the things the Spirit desires. So, it is not about replacing but overcoming the desires of the flesh.

 

[Pepper77]

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

All our sins past present and future are forgiven at the cross, period for those who are in Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Paul talks about the war between the flesh and the spirit (Galatians 5), two separate forces. To win, Paul tells us to set our minds on the things the Spirit desires. So, it is not about replacing but overcoming the desires of the flesh.

We still have free will but we are no longer slaves to sin. The Spirit empowers us.