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fhansen

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I believe Augustine helped to shape what is known as popular Christianity today. I disagree with his view that matter or the physical things in this world are sinful, and the spirit alone is good.

For I have heard Eternal Security proponents say something along the effect that their body sins and yet their spirit is saved (even while they sin) by their having a belief on Jesus. Jesus does not see their sin because of their belief on Jesus. Many think the word "flesh" is always in reference to the physical body or physical thinking. I believe Augustine helped to shape this kind of thinking today.

However, Romans 8:13 is referring to the word "flesh" as in reference to "sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1 is referring to the words "filthiness of the flesh" as in reference to sin. God wants us to obey as a part of His grace. It is not an option as a part of the salvation process. God wants us to love Him by keeping His commandments. It is only logical that those who love the Lord will enter His kingdom (Which is confirmed even by the word of Paul in 1 Corinthians 16:22).
While Augustine was involved in Mancheanism he naturally had a dualistic perspective but I think, as opposed to some theories, that for the most part he denied and dismissed all that when he converted. But either way the Church didn't accept everything he taught anyway, including his view on original sin in its totality.

And human shame is a sort of universal problem in fallen man, beginning in Eden as a result of the Fall as Genesis reports, and it will always continue to rear its head within and outside of religious circles as I see it. And in any case while Augustine definitely preached grace, he did not believe this novel idea that sin was so covered that we could continue in sin so long as we're saved-or believe we are. And the Church has never taught that.
 
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Yes, the Law is right! It's holy, spiritual, and good (Rom 7). But it cannot justify us. So the New Covenant is not about being free from the obligation to obey, it's about finding the right way to obey, so that our obedience doesn't come out of self-effort but by grace, in partnership with the Spirit of God rather than by my own futile efforts. This is the way we now seek to fulfill the law, made possible by communion with God which in turn is made possible by the reconciliation between ourselves and Himself that Jesus won on the cross. As we turn back to God in faith this relationship is realized again-and He can do the work in us that we cannot accomplish on our own. "Apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). This is to be "under grace" rather than "under the law".

There was never such a thing as being "under the Law" (Law Alone without God's grace) as being acceptable to God. Genesis to Revelation teaches: "Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation." These works of faith (Both in Justification and in Sanctification) are of God, and not of our own doing alone. It was always about a relationship with God. It was always about God working to do good works through man. It was always about the Savior (the Lord) saving and forgiving man.

I am also not in disagreement that obedience needs to stem from grace. Nobody can obey without being saved by God's grace. This was true of the Old Covenant as it is true of the New Covenant today. But if we make no effort to obey after being saved by God's grace, then we are turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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Can you sin and love God at the same time?

No. A person needs to repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord and forsake their sin in order to have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).
 
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Yes, the Law is right! It's holy, spiritual, and good (Rom 7). But it cannot justify us. So the New Covenant is not about being free from the obligation to obey, it's about man finally finding the right way to obey, so that our obedience doesn't come out of self-effort and/or self-righteousness but by grace, in partnership with the Spirit of God rather than by my own futile efforts.

This is the way we now seek to fulfill the law, made possible by communion with God which in turn is made possible by the reconciliation between ourselves and God that Jesus won on the cross. As we turn back to God in faith this relationship is realized again-and He can do the work in us that we cannot accomplish on our own. "Apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). This is to be "under grace" rather than "under the law".

Oh, and Paul was writing from his perspective as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 and he was not writing from his experience as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. Paul was telling us what it was like to struggle with keeping the Law without Jesus Christ. Such a thing was impossible without the Lord. But with God, all things are possible. Paul says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of God (See 2 Corinthians 7:1).
 
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No. A person needs to repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord and forsake their sin in order to have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).

Hmmm. So you can’t love God until you do those things, or is doing those things evidence that you love God?
 
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fhansen

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Oh, and Paul was writing from his perspective as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24 and he was not writing from his experience as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. Paul was telling us what it was like to struggle with keeping the Law without Jesus Christ. Such a thing was impossible without the Lord. But with God, all things are possible. Paul says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of God (See 2 Corinthians 7:1).
Paul wrote the truth in Rom 7. He knew that the law was good and spiritual, that the lack was in man, not in the law. I think that's something you'd agree with-and either way yes, we cannot do it without Christ. 'With man nothing is possible, with God all things are possible'. "Apart from Me you can do nothing". The New Covenant in a nutshell.
 
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While Augustine was involved in Mancheanism he naturally had a dualistic perspective but I think, as opposed to some theories, that for the most part he denied and dismissed all that when he converted.

Do you have a source where he states he denied this after his conversion?
It's not that I don't doubt that such a source exists, I just would prefer to see it from an official source rather than me simply taking your word at such a thing. No offense of course.

You said:
But either way the Church didn't accept everything he taught anyway, including his view on original sin in its totality.

And human shame is a sort of universal problem in fallen man, beginning in Eden as a result of the Fall as Genesis reports, and it will always continue to rear its head within and outside of religious circles as I see it. And in any case while Augustine definitely preached grace, he did not believe this novel idea that sin was so covered that we could continue in sin so long as we're saved-or believe we are. And the Church has never taught that.

The Bible also teaches that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, and we should not live the rest of our time to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God (1 Peter 4:1-2). Note: I believe this is in reference to grievous sin (Like: Lying, hate, lusting, theft, murder, etc.).
 
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Paul wrote the truth in Rom 7. He knew that the law was good and spiritual, that the lack was in man, not in the law. Is that not something you'd agree with?

I agree with Romans 7 just fine. I don't agree with your interpretation on Romans 7 (or your church's interpretation on it).

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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Hmmm. So you can’t love God until you do those things, or is doing those things evidence that you love God?

No believer (including myself) can love God without keeping His commandments. So no. A believer cannot love God without keeping His commandments. This is what John 14:15, and John 15:10 are teaching in it's most basic and plain form of reading.
 
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fhansen

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There was never such a thing as being "under the Law" (Law Alone without God's grace) as being acceptable to God. Genesis to Revelation teaches: "Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation." These works of faith (Both in Justification and in Sanctification) are of God, and not of our own doing alone. It was always about a relationship with God. It was always about God working to do good works through man. It was always about the Savior (the Lord) saving and forgiving man.

I am also not in disagreement that obedience needs to stem from grace. Nobody can obey without being saved by God's grace. This was true of the Old Covenant as it is true of the New Covenant today. But if we make no effort to obey after being saved by God's grace, then we are turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
I'm not sure where disagreement might lie here-I'm not finding much. I'd only say that grace is continuously necessary if we are to remain in obedience, and that such obedience will be challenged and tested and refined and even increased to the extent that we remain in Him. But we can depart from Him again, we can leave the life of grace which is so critical to having a life-and a life worth living.
 
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No believer (including myself) can love God without keeping His commandments. So no. A believer cannot love God without keeping His commandments. This is what John 14:15, and John 15:10 are teaching in it's most basic and plain form of reading.
Again, what happens first? Loving God, or repenting and seeking forgiveness?
 
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Again, what happens first? Loving God, or repenting and seeking forgiveness?

Repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). One does not love God until they obey His commandments.
 
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fhansen

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I agree with Romans 7 just fine. I don't agree with your interpretation on Romans 7 (or your church's interpretation on it).

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Sounds a bit complicated to me. Anyway, the church has never considered the law to be abolished, other than certain "works of the law" such as circumcision and other ceremonial laws. But the decalogue, for example, is still considered in force as Rom 13:10 affirms. The New Covenant just provides the right way to fulfill it, by love, under grace, by the Spirit as we now enter communion with and abide in God. Pretty straight forward even as it requires our continuous vigilance. But the yoke is easy, the burden light.
 
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Grip Docility

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Repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). One does not love God until they obey His commandments.

This would have almost been something I agreed with, but I actually have discussed this with you enough to realize what you mean by “commandments”.
 
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Hammster

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Repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). One does not love God until they obey His commandments.
So repentance comes before loving God.

Why would someone who doesn’t love God want to repent?
 
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So repentance comes before loving God.

Repentance is loving God because loving God is proven true by obeying His commandments.

You said:
Why would someone who doesn’t love God want to repent?

When a person is convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit, they realize the love that God has for them, and they are able to then quickly seek forgiveness with the Lord, thereby acting out their love for God. A person is not saved until they repent and or believe in the Lord. If a person refuses to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord), and they refuse to believe in Jesus as their Savior, they are not acting upon God's commands and thus they are not loving God.
 
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fhansen

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Do you have a source where he states he denied this after his conversion?
It's not that I don't doubt that such a source exists, I just would prefer to see it from an official source rather than me simply taking your word at such a thing. No offense of course.
What's an "official source" you'd trust? He was no longer Manichean but Christian and the Manichean terminology and concepts are no longer part of His jargon. Read Confessions or City of God. Everyone has their own opinion but I think that many have tried to weaken the whole concept of Original Sin/ the Fall of man by attacking Augustine's thoughts. Either way, even if he's off-based in this area it hasn't affected official teachings that I'm aware of. There are many early fathers BTW, who seemed to have a much more negative view of the human body and sex than Augustine did even as he knew, by experience, that lust can turn into a very intense idolatry-and we're seeing much of that in our world today.
The Bible also teaches that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, and we should not live the rest of our time to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God (1 Peter 4:1-2). Note: I believe this is in reference to grievous sin (Like: Lying, hate, lusting, theft, murder, etc.).
Well, that's definitely true-to the extent that such will be denied the kingdom of God according to Scripture.
 
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Repentance is loving God because loving God is proven true by obeying His commandments.
Then loving God results in repentance.
 
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Love God and do what you want. Or variations thereof. It’s a quote attributed to Augustine. (We don’t need links to the original. I only want to discuss the phrase.)

True? False?

Let the discussion commence.
False..
I lover God. I want to do what His will is.
But, We are still flesh and to do as "I" want is different than doing what God wants.

Yes, to do Gods will is what I want... but, If we are honest.... Telling someone to "do what they want" is not going to end well.

I would say Love God and Try to do what He wants.... then...there is no problem.

Have you never heard someone say.."I would like to just go over there and "blank".... Well... that would be "doing what they want..

We are to shine for Christ... can't do that if we are doing what we want.
 
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