Love God...

[fhansen]

Nowhere did I ever say that you can force love. Please see my post here within this thread.

Ok, I read that and I think the most important thing here is that God is seeking to change us, to draw us into ever and ever greater love, which reflects His own image, even if beginning with only a very small amount. And that only comes by grace as we come to know and be reconciled with Him. Because then we enter communion with God, with He abiding in us and we in Him. Then He's gained access to our hearts, and He begins to do a work in them.

And this knowledge of Him, that Jesus came to reveal, includes the knowledge of His forgiveness, of His kindness and trustworthiness, of His patience: of His huge and uncompromising love for man IOW, in spite of our sin and preference for darkness. But if and when we're ready, we respond to His light, to His love, and begin to reflect it back. And a big part of that reflection is willing obedience to His commands.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, I read that and I think the most important thing here is that God is seeking to change us, to draw us into ever and ever greater love, which reflects His own image, even if beginning with only a very small amount. And that only comes by grace as we come to know and be reconciled with Him. Because then we enter communion with God, with He abiding in us and we in Him. Then He's gained access to our hearts, and He begins to do a work in them.

And this knowledge of Him, that Jesus came to reveal, includes the knowledge of His forgiveness, of His kindness and trustworthiness, of His patience: of His huge and uncompromising love for man IOW, in spite of our sin and preference for darkness. But if and when we're ready, we respond to His light, to His love, and begin to reflect it back. And a big part of that reflection is willing obedience to His commands.

I am not in disagreement with your statement here. But it also needs to be stressed that there is another side of the Scriptures that warns even believers of falling, and or being destroyed by sin or in breaking God's commands. Otherwise, why strive to obey the Lord? Sure, love is a good motivator, but fear is even more of a motivator, as well. We need a balance of both in my understanding of God's Word to properly build that relationship with the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I am wondering, is why does it mean that? Why doesn’t it mean, taking it to the extreme, being an obedient child? If it doesn’t mean that, then obedience is for some other reason than love for God.

When I referred to taking it to the extreme in "Doing what one wants" I was referring to disobedience to God's commands and not obedience.

 

[fhansen]

I am not in disagreement with your statement here. But it also needs to be stressed that there is another side of the Scriptures that warns even believers of falling, and or being destroyed by sin or in breaking God's commands. Otherwise, why strive to obey the Lord? Sure, love is a good motivator, but fear is even more of a motivator, as well. We need a balance of both in my understanding of God's Word to properly build that relationship with the Lord.

Yes, I think fear is called for, in the beginning but also as a background reminder so to speak, because we aren't always obedient; we don't always believe, hope, and love as we should to put it another way-and we can't just cavalierly ignore that as if it's all covered by our faith; we need to be challenged, and to strive to overcome those challenges because in that our holiness is confirmed and actually grows.

But ultimately love is meant to "cast out" fear. If and when we really do love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, there's simply nothing to fear. Much to be in awe of, but not to fear in the servile sense as we more fully realize our son-ship of a Father with an unimaginable degree of love for us. I'd point again to the quote of Basil of Cesarea in my post #95.

 

[Hammster]

When I referred to taking it to the extreme in "Doing what one wants" I was referring to disobedience to God's commands and not obedience.

I know. And I was wondering why it’s not the opposite.

 

[fhansen]

Just to keep the record set straight, Augustine was not saying that as long as one loves they can do whatever they want including sin. That's simply not Augustine to begin with. He's making a very astute and concise statement. To the extent that we love we won't sin. We won't want to sin; we're truly living in the Spirit at that point and any and everything we do will be innocent and allowable by its nature.

In a sense love was what was missing in Adam, what hadn't yet been cultivated in him. Had He loved God and neighbor as God intends for us, Adam wouldn't have disobeyed to begin with. His act was an act against both faith in and love of God and this is why faith is so crucial; it's the first step back to God and that relationship with Him within which love blossoms. Man was made for that relationship, that union, and he's lost without it, unable to retain moral integrity for one thing, to refrain from sin because fallen man values himself over God, pride over love. And we'll struggle throughout this life to overcome that very preference, only possible with the help of grace, with the help of God- as we come to know and continue to abide in Him.

 

[aiki]

Ill put it this way, again:
"Jesus always loved, God and man. When we love we never do wrong; everything we want to do is right when motivated by love."
None of that conflicts with any actions of Jesus or the Father; everything they do is consistent with love, everything they do is ultimately for the good of their creation.

A deflection if I ever saw one. What is the ultimate good God is seeking for His Creation? It seems to me, everything God does is ultimately centered upon Himself, not His Creation.

And, yes, we are to love ourselves, as God does. That does not mean that we don't also deny ourselves, as Jesus did.

Where in the Bible do you read that we are to love ourselves? We do so naturally which is the Big Problem between us and God. It is because we are so pathologically self-loving that we find ourselves at odds with our Maker. In fact, I think self-love is at the heart of all sin. So, no, we are not to love ourselves - as the several verses I posted clearly indicate; we are to die to ourselves.

 

[aiki]

He wanted to die on the cross. So He did.

Matthew 26:39
39 "...O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I will, but as you will."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I think fear is called for, in the beginning but also as a background reminder so to speak, because we aren't always obedient; we don't always believe, hope, and love as we should to put it another way-and we can't just cavalierly ignore that as if it's all covered by our faith; we need to be challenged, and to strive to overcome those challenges because in that our holiness is confirmed and actually grows.

But ultimately love is meant to "cast out" fear. If and when we really do love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, there's simply nothing to fear. Much to be in awe of, but not to fear in the servile sense as we more fully realize our son-ship of a Father with an unimaginable degree of love for us. I'd point again to the quote of Basil of Cesarea in my post #95.

This is how we cast out fear and perfect love:
"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

Keeping His Word.
Keeping His commandments.

They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (See: Galatians 5:24).
I believe this verse is in reference to grievous sin (or what you would call: "Mortal sin." - but not in the Catholic sense but in the biblical only sense).

Anyways, according to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, etc. it is not true that we will always commit grievous sin as a matter of fact in this life (if that is what you are implying). God's Word teaches we can overcome grievous sin. If not, then how can the love of God be perfected in our lives? It cannot, and thus we will always be in fear. But we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Forever? No. He that fears is not made perfect in love. We perfect love by keeping His Word (i.e. keeping His commandments).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I think fear is called for, in the beginning but also as a background reminder so to speak, because we aren't always obedient; we don't always believe, hope, and love as we should to put it another way-and we can't just cavalierly ignore that as if it's all covered by our faith; we need to be challenged, and to strive to overcome those challenges because in that our holiness is confirmed and actually grows.

But ultimately love is meant to "cast out" fear. If and when we really do love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, there's simply nothing to fear. Much to be in awe of, but not to fear in the servile sense as we more fully realize our son-ship of a Father with an unimaginable degree of love for us. I'd point again to the quote of Basil of Cesarea in my post #95.

I imagine most Christians today really do not believe this passage applies to them today:

7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward."
(Psalms 19:7-11).​

Granted, this passage is referring to the Old Law, it's basic underlying principle behind it has not changed in regards to the New Covenant Law (that was given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers). God's law can still convert the soul today. By God's laws, they warn His servants, and by God's laws, there is great reward for his servants who keep them.

Today, God's laws are not to be desired like gold, but by the way many men speak today, it is if they have disdain for them. Maybe I am getting the wrong impression, but that is how it appears to me.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 26:39
39 "...O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I will, but as you will."

Well, He either did what He wanted to do or He didn’t. What does that say about the Godhead if He didn’t want to do what His Father wanted?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I am wondering, is why does it mean that? Why doesn’t it mean, taking it to the extreme, being an obedient child? If it doesn’t mean that, then obedience is for some other reason than love for God.

So are you saying that a believer who obeys God to the opposite extreme can be in error or in the wrong with God? If that is what you are saying, I do not see how that is possible. Jesus and His followers were all about how obedience was good and how disobedience was bad.

 

[Hammster]

So are you saying that a believer who obeys God to the opposite extreme can be in error or in the wrong with God? If that is what you are saying, I do not see how that is possible. Jesus and His followers were all about how obedience was good and how disobedience was bad.

Actually, I was asking a question based on a statement that you made.

Why does “doing what you want” mean sinning?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just to keep the record set straight, Augustine was not saying that as long as one loves they can do whatever they want including sin. That's simply not Augustine to begin with. He's making a very astute and concise statement. To the extent that we love we won't sin. We won't want to sin; we're truly living in the Spirit at that point and any and everything we do will be innocent and allowable by its nature.

In a sense love was what was missing in Adam, what hadn't yet been cultivated in him. Had He loved God and neighbor as God intends for us, Adam wouldn't have disobeyed to begin with. His act was an act against both faith in and love of God and this is why faith is so crucial; it's the first step back to God and that relationship with Him within which love blossoms. Man was made for that relationship, that union, and he's lost without it, unable to retain moral integrity for one thing, to refrain from sin because fallen man values himself over God, pride over love. And we'll struggle throughout this life to overcome that very preference, only possible with the help of grace, with the help of God- as we come to know and continue to abide in Him.

I believe Augustine helped to shape what is known as popular Christianity today. I disagree with his view that matter or the physical things in this world are sinful, and the spirit alone is good. For I have heard Eternal Security proponents say something along the effect that their body sins and yet their spirit is saved (even while they sin) by their having a belief on Jesus. Jesus does not see their sin because of their belief on Jesus. Many think the word "flesh" is always in reference to the physical body or physical thinking. I believe Augustine helped to shape this kind of thinking today.

However, Romans 8:13 is referring to the word "flesh" as in reference to "sin." 2 Corinthians 7:1 is referring to the words "filthiness of the flesh" as in reference to sin. God wants us to obey as a part of His grace. It is not an option as a part of the salvation process. God wants us to love Him by keeping His commandments. It is only logical that those who love the Lord will enter His kingdom (Which is confirmed even by the word of Paul in 1 Corinthians 16:22).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, I was asking a question based on a statement that you made.

Why does “doing what you want” mean sinning?

It can mean that taken to it's farthest extreme. Nobody can really deny this basic truth. Unbelievers (Non-Christians) obviously do what they want and this would include sinful things.

 

[Newtheran]

Love God and do what you want. Or variations thereof. It’s a quote attributed to Augustine. (We don’t need links to the original. I only want to discuss the phrase.)

True? False?

Let the discussion commence.

False.

Try substituting "your wife" for God into that phrase and see how far you get.

 

[fhansen]

A deflection if I ever saw one. What is the ultimate good God is seeking for His Creation? It seems to me, everything God does is ultimately centered upon Himself, not His Creation.

For myself it wasn't a deflection so much as Christianity 101 to be honest. The primary aspect of God's glory is His love-and that glory is expressed/radiated in love for his creation-for us-most fully demonstrated by His own willingness to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh on the cross at the hands of His own creation if that's what it takes to prove that love-in spite of our sin and even hatred of Him.

Where in the Bible do you read that we are to love ourselves? We do so naturally which is the Big Problem between us and God. It is because we are so pathologically self-loving that we find ourselves at odds with our Maker. In fact, I think self-love is at the heart of all sin. So, no, we are not to love ourselves - as the several verses I posted clearly indicate; we are to die to ourselves.

Do you think that when Jesus told us to love our neighbor as ourselves that He wanted us to hate and deny our neighbor? Self-hatred is an evil that leads to harm of self and neighbor, spousal abuse, substance abuse, all kinds of ugly excesses. This is not what Jesus meant by hating self. He meant to deny ourselves, to put our lives and needs beneath that of others.

What fallen man does naturally is to love himself inordinately-it's to not truly love ourselves as we are, in recognition of our limitations, of our innate inferiority to God as created beings. Everything in creation is necessarily good-by virtue of its having been created by God. So the only source of evil is to twist something good into something less good-out of alignment with God's will IOW. Pride has been classically referred to as "inordinate self-love", just as gluttony is an inordinate desire for food, or lust is an inordinate attraction to sex- desires which in themselves are good and serve their natural purpose as long as they aren't abused-becoming obsessions/idolatry. But that abuse- of the good things God has given us -is a constant way of life for fallen man, and it all starts with the abuse of self love, i.e. "pride", which seeks to exalt man above even God Himself-bypassing His authority over our morality as we take on that authority for ourselves. It's to idolize the self.

 

[fhansen]

I imagine most Christians today really do not believe this passage applies to them today:

7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward."
(Psalms 19:7-11).​

Granted, this passage is referring to the Old Law, it's basic underlying principle behind it has not changed in regards to the New Covenant Law (that was given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers). God's law can still convert the soul today. By God's laws, they warn His servants, and by God's laws, there is great reward for his servants who keep them.

Today, God's laws are not to be desired like gold, but by the way many men speak today, it is if they have disdain for them. Maybe I am getting the wrong impression, but that is how it appears to me.

Yes, the Law is right! It's holy, spiritual, and good (Rom 7). But it cannot justify us. So the New Covenant is not about being free from the obligation to obey, it's about man finally finding the right way to obey, so that our obedience doesn't come out of self-effort and/or self-righteousness but by grace, in partnership with the Spirit of God rather than by my own futile efforts.

This is the way we now seek to fulfill the law, made possible by communion with God which in turn is made possible by the reconciliation between ourselves and God that Jesus won on the cross. As we turn back to God in faith this relationship is realized again-and He can do the work in us that we cannot accomplish on our own. "Apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5). This is to be "under grace" rather than "under the law". God's entire work since the Fall of man and the separation between Himself and us that occurred at that time has been to re-establish this intimate relationship, a relationship that justifies us by its very nature.

 

[Hammster]

It can mean that taken to it's farthest extreme. Nobody can really deny this basic truth. Unbelievers (Non-Christians) obviously do what they want and this would include sinful things.

Can you sin and love God at the same time?

 

[Hammster]

False.

Try substituting "your wife" for God into that phrase and see how far you get.

Okay. And?