Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[createdtoworship]

I'm afraid you've wandered off into some strange non-sequitur.

I refuted your point successfully, please explain how it does not follow.

 

[createdtoworship]

The irony is that my view on annihilationism didn't come by reconstruing Axiological intuitions but rather through applying Hermeneutics. So, to some extent, I'd still agree with ... *ahem* ... @gradyll's OP header statement. ... if it was true.

I would feel ashamed, if I held your view of the Bible.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just sayin, I would not want to party in hell cause all your friends will be there.

thats just foolish.

 

[holo]

Well God put in our hearts a moral compass of what is right and wrong.

And if anything, that moral compass says that punishment should fit the crime.

because those are actually entirely different concepts. There is a permissive will of God, and a sovereign will of God. The sovereign will of God is always in God's favor, the permissive will of God can sometimes allow free will to rule over sovereignty.

God having to separate wills is news to me. He must then be in conflict with himself. Apparently his wish to torture people forever is stronger than his wish to save them.

Loving people also means being Just and Holy in front of them.

Do you see eternal torture as an expression of love?

God actually hides the gospel from the natural man, just so that it will be incoherent to him, because if He under stood it, He may be saved. But if God doesn't want you saved, it will be confusing to you.

Well that's at least a little consistent - that God doesn't want everybody to be saved.

But again, I have proven God's existence in the appropriate thread

No offense, but don't flatter yourself.

you have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling the Bible says. Pray to God, humble yourself, repent of all known sin, and then come back as ask for me to tell you the Gospel. At that point you will be ready for it.

Well, as you suggest, apparently God just doesn't want me to be saved.

so you would have fallen short on the aspect of being perfectly just, you would have let sin slide, which is not honorable

Nope. I wouldn't have allowed sin at all. And it's not like God couldn't have put a different limit on our lifespan, our ability to suffer, or our ability to hurt others, etc.

then you would have only robots in the garden of eden, no free will to choose evil. You would never ever know if your creation truly loved you for who you are, because you would have removed the ability to reject you.

If I were God, I would know. I wouldn't have to conduct an experiment (knowing it would result in the eternal suffering of uncountable souls) to figure it out.

I mean, my children love me to death. I don't have to allow them to run headfirst into traffic for that to happen. And I certainly don't have to threaten to torture them to death for them to "love" me. I don't even have to do anything in particular. All I have to do is spend time with them. It seems in this regard that I am much more powerful than God.

Satan will be killed one day

Lucky him! The rest of us will never die, but be tortured by God for eternity.

we make foolish choices all the time, do you think the person who has a hit and run DUI thought about the consequences before He got drunk? No.

Of course not. He didn't have the necessary knowledge. Do you think that if any person was faced with heaven and hell, in a way that he could see both 100% clearly, he would choose hell?

Yes it can lie with the christian. A refusal to properly tell the gospel message, can make the christian at fault. So you are correct.

I'm asking if you think it's possible that the fault lies with you.

You don't like true Holy Justice, that is what it boils down to.

Except that it's not justice in any sense of the word. It's the exact opposite.

Again, I have to ask: if your body somehow lived forever, and you stole something, say, a pack of gums, would it be fair to give you a life sentence for that theft?

 

[holo]

I am not sure hell would have the same affect on God. The punishment would not be the same. Our flesh is not as his flesh, He was resurrected and glorified, and death could no longer hurt him at that point. So hell would be a walk in the park to a glorified being that was God.

So we agree he didn't take our punishment. In other words, he wasn't a substitute.

you are correct, he didn't take the same punishment, but He did pay fully for our sins

How? If the price for sins MUST BE eternity in hell, how come God could just change the rules suddenly?

He was tortured in ways that we would never know. One of the worst thing a person can go through is the torture of a loved one. Say if I wanted to really get to you, I would torture your kid, not you. That would horrify you. And that is what happened on the cross. A fate worse than hell

No, not worse than hell. Jesus' suffering had an end. Ours won't.

But in any case it boils down to that Jesus didn't in fact take MY punishment. It HAS to be suffered, but Jesus doesn't suffer it, yet his death somehow covers it.

those are separate issues, the blood of calves and goats in the old testament covered sin, but did not remove sin. Jesus death because of the quality of the sacrifice, completely removed sin, it's known as justification.

There are also lots of accounts in the bible where God simply forgives people, and/or is patient with them. What happened to their sins?

 

[holo]

yeah it's that simple if you program a bunch of robots with no free will to accept or reject you. Free will is the more loving choice. What is more loving to put a lion in a circus to perform like a robot, for ticket money, or let the lion free to do as he likes in the plains of africa?

Did you just compare eternity in hell with being free to do as one likes on the plains?

 

[holo]

Imagine sacrificing your baby, for someone else. It wouldn't happen I tell you that much, I would never do it.

If I knew my kid would rise from the dead and rule the universe for eternity afterwards, I would.

 

[createdtoworship]

And if anything, that moral compass says that punishment should fit the crime.

yes, it does fit the crime perfectly. See the logical case for God sending to hell, in the OP. punishing a person for 30,000 sins in a temporal prison is not good.

God having to separate wills is news to me. He must then be in conflict with himself. Apparently his wish to torture people forever is stronger than his wish to save them.

I believe in the soveriegnty of God myself. I believe that He desires all men to be saved, but only saves those who's hearts are ready for Him. So satan in cases like yourself confuses and sometimes possesses an individual so that they cannot comprehend the Gospel, and thus get converted. The Bible says the "god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliever" The god of this world is satan. But yes God has a perfect and a permissive will, for more info check this out. ( I am not making this up), Can you help me understand God's perfect will versus His permissive will? | Bible.org

Do you see eternal torture as an expression of love?

If true and Holy Justice is love, then Yes eternal torture is love.

Well that's at least a little consistent - that God doesn't want everybody to be saved.

I never said that. He desires all men to be saved the Bible says, but not all men will humble themselves, repent and accept the Gospel. And if they reject God enough, God actually hardens their heart so that repentence becomes impossible (hebrews 6). Pharoah in the old testament, had God harden His heart, leading to His eventual death.

No offense, but don't flatter yourself.

by all means go to that thread and take a whack at trying to defeat the solid logic presented.

Well, as you suggest, apparently God just doesn't want me to be saved.

Are you humble? Are you broken before God, angry at yourself that you sin has ruined your relationship with God, are you willing to reject all other religions including buddhism, athiesm etc and follow God? Are you willing to repent of lust, pornography, and any uncleaness and come to Christ for salvation. To make Him Lord of your life? I don't think you are ready, it's not that God doesn't want you, it's that you don't want Christianity.

Nope. I wouldn't have allowed sin at all.

So you would have programmed all humans to only do your will, and have no choice but to follow you. And yet you condemn a parents choice to make their kids attend sunday school even if they don't want to? Lol.

And it's not like God couldn't have put a different limit on our lifespan, our ability to suffer, or our ability to hurt others, etc.

what do you mean?

If I were God, I would know. I wouldn't have to conduct an experiment (knowing it would result in the eternal suffering of uncountable souls) to figure it out.

it's the perfect love story, God creates a free race of man, the majority reject him, but a select few don't. Among that few, He chooses His bride, a bride that He gives His life to save, even though the bride is like a prostitute to Him. He shows perfect sacrificial love, in a way that becomes the only source of perfect sacrificial love in the human race (see my thread "the moral argument for God's existence."

I mean, my children love me to death. I don't have to allow them to run headfirst into traffic for that to happen. And I certainly don't have to threaten to torture them to death for them to "love" me.

I am so sorry you feel that way. That is not the message of Christianity. He doesn't threaten us to love Him. He forgives us, loves us as we are. And then we love Him in return.

I don't even have to do anything in particular. All I have to do is spend time with them. It seems in this regard that I am much more powerful than God.Lucky him! The rest of us will never die, but be tortured by God for eternity.

Hell was originally created for Satan. Not us. But He took us down with Him, when He tempted us to sin. Therefore God cursed satan to be bound to the earth, and to crawl on His belly perpetually.

Of course not. He didn't have the necessary knowledge.

so your saying that He didn't think ahead of time, yet He will have his licsence revoked and have prison time regardless of not thinking ahead of time.

Do you think that if any person was faced with heaven and hell, in a way that he could see both 100% clearly, he would choose hell?

I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. Also: Here is a person choosing hell a few posts from now: Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Also, I have explained hell to you numerous times, the logic of it, and it's reality, yet you refuse to believe. So when you are judged God will quote this forum, and say, "see I sent my messengers to attempt to explain it to you, yet you plugged your ears and did not heed the warnings"

I'm asking if you think it's possible that the fault lies with you.

OF course it does. I am not perfect, I make mistakes all the time. God chooses to use me, and that is one of the things I question God on, is His choice in using me.

Except that it's not justice in any sense of the word. It's the exact opposite.

but I answered all your bullet points, so please reconsider this statement.

Again, I have to ask: if your body somehow lived forever, and you stole something, say, a pack of gums, would it be fair to give you a life sentence for that theft?

you are using terms that refer to time "life sentence." Eternity in Hell is not a long time, it is outside of time, so the comparison is wrong.

 

[createdtoworship]

So we agree he didn't take our punishment. In other words, he wasn't a substitute.

you are correct, He didn't take the same punishment we would have, He took a worse punishment, as I explained. God separated from the son for a short period, and killed His only son, torturing Him. That is why His salvation is sufficient.

How? If the price for sins MUST BE eternity in hell, how come God could just change the rules suddenly?No, not worse than hell. Jesus' suffering had an end. Ours won't.

the wages of sin is death. But since our sins were done by an eternal soul, the death must be eternal. Jesus never sinned and thus does not qualify for Hell, He, being a perfect lamb without blemish was tortured and killed for someone else. Remember in the old testament a simple sacrificial lamb was enough to allow someone to go to paradise. This time it was God's son.

But in any case it boils down to that Jesus didn't in fact take MY punishment.

you are correct, that is an error in evangelism, but I disagree that he wasn't our substitute.

It HAS to be suffered, but Jesus doesn't suffer it, yet his death somehow covers it.There are also lots of accounts in the bible where God simply forgives people, and/or is patient with them. What happened to their sins?

Like I said in the old testament you could take a prized asset (say a lamb that was worth a lot of money) and you could sacrifice it to cover your sins. This allowed you to go to paradise. when Jesus (our perfect lamb) was killed and tortured, this perfect lamb not only covered sins, but removed them forever. Jesus did suffer, it's just that he did not get hell, he got something worse. God was forced to kill the love of his life, and torture him, to save His wife. That is a fate worse than hell.

 

[Skreeper]

View attachment 257809

Just sayin, I would not want to party in hell cause all your friends will be there.

thats just foolish.

But where else can I pledge my allegiance to the demon overlord and recieve my superb powers if not in Hell?

 

[createdtoworship]

But where else can I pledge my allegiance to the demon overlord and recieve my superb powers if not in Hell?

that is a misconception. Satan will not rule over hell, he will be an inmate. In fact hell was created specifically for Him. We go there when Satan took us down with him, by tempting our corporate parents in the garden causing a genetic defect of sin. But there will be no superb powers in hell. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Pray to God today, to be spared. Come to Him and receive His salvation, repent of your sin and Give God your life, or suffer the consequence.

 

[Skreeper]

that is a misconception. Satan will not rule over hell, he will be an inmate. In fact hell was created specifically for Him. We go there when Satan took us down with him, by tempting our corporate parents in the garden causing a genetic defect of sin. But there will be no superb powers in hell. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Pray to God today, to be spared. Come to Him and recieve His salvation, repent of your sin and Give God your life.

I don't kneel and beg, I learned to walk upright at an early age.

We all have choices to make in our lives:

Are you an obidient machine who does as he's been told or are you a living being endowed with free will?

The one who gave us free will cannot punish us for using it.

 

[holo]

yes, it does fit the crime perfectly. See the logical case for God sending to hell, in the OP. punishing a person for 30,000 sins in a temporal prison is not good

Punishment for a million sins should still not be eternal suffering.

But in any case you believe this applies to the kid who commits ONE sin and then dies, too. You believe Anne Frank is in hell right now, right (she almost certainly wasn't saved). And you believe she deserves every bit of torment, knowing she will never ever escape the horrors of hell.

And yet at the same time you think it was wrong to starve and gas her, right? Because you have this moral compass that tells you it's obviously not right.

Do you at least see why that doesn't make sense to people?

If true and Holy Justice is love, then Yes eternal torture is love.

I can't even.

by all means go to that thread and take a whack at trying to defeat the solid logic presented.

Again, don't flatter yourself. Where you see solid arguments I see a lot of assumptions, ignorance and moving of goal posts. We don't have to debate that here, but just know that what you think you are saying and what others think you are saying, are not aligned.

Are you broken before God, angry at yourself that you sin has ruined your relationship with God, are you willing to reject all other religions including buddhism, athiesm etc and follow God? Are you willing to repent of lust, pornography, and any uncleaness and come to Christ for salvation. To make Him Lord of your life? I don't think you are ready, it's not that God doesn't want you, it's that you don't want Christianity.

Actually, I did want Christianity for the longest time. I lost faith against my will. I'm fine now, but the transition was horrible for me.

So you would have programmed all humans to only do your will, and have no choice but to follow you.

No, but I wouldn't have allowed them to torture each other to death, to start wars, I wouldn't have allowed all the horrible diseases, I wouldn't send them to hell, I would've put an upper threshold to pain that was much lower than it is, etc.

I give my children freedom. That doesn't mean I must put them on the edge of a cliff to see if they'll jump off or listen to me. They're free, but not to murder each other. I don't have to allow them to burn the house down to know that they love me. I know that they love me, and why. I don't have to put them to any sort of test to be sure of that - and I'm a human being. I don't see why God would need to do something like that.

And yet you condemn a parents choice to make their kids attend sunday school even if they don't want to?

What? Are you confusing this for a different thread?

what do you mean?

If you've had a serious toothache or a kidney stone you probably know that you can feel pain you didn't even know was possible. All the people being tortured right now definitely knows that. Why did God make it so that we can suffer so tremendously? He could've put a cap on it.

it's the perfect love story, God creates a free race of man, the majority reject him, but a select few don't. Among that few, He chooses His bride, a bride that He gives His life to save, even though the bride is like a prostitute to Him. He shows perfect sacrificial love, in a way that becomes the only source of perfect sacrificial love in the human race (see my thread "the moral argument for God's existence."

I guess you and I have pretty different moral values, or at least tastes. This is the worst "love story" I have ever heard.

so your saying that He didn't think ahead of time, yet He will have his licsence revoked and have prison time regardless of not thinking ahead of time

Yes, of course there must be consequences for doing something like that. But the point is that any unwise behaviour ultimately boils down to ignorance. Slavery happened because people were ignorant of the fact that people are equal. Drunk driving happens when people are ignorant of how intoxicated they are and how dangerous it is.

I have explained hell to you numerous times, the logic of it, and it's reality, yet you refuse to believe.

That's because your logic isn't logical, and I have no good reason to believe hell even exists.

So when you are judged God will quote this forum, and say, "see I sent my messengers to attempt to explain it to you, yet you plugged your ears and did not heed the warnings"

I... really don't know how to respond to this. I guess my reaction is exactly like yours would be if it was I who said this to you.

but I answered all your bullet points, so please reconsider this statement.

I find your answers unconvincing, unfounded and self-contradictory.

you are using terms that refer to time "life sentence." Eternity in Hell is not a long time, it is outside of time, so the comparison is wrong.

No, you're not getting away with that. You know what I mean, and you know it's reasonable. As I've said before, for the soul in hell it obviously doesn't matter if hell is technically eternal or infinite or neverending or whatever term you put on it. The experience will be of continuous suffering.

 

[holo]

you are correct, He didn't take the same punishment we would have, He took a worse punishment, as I explained.

I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that you actually think Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected is somehow a worse fate than eternity in hell.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't kneel and beg, I learned to walk upright at an early age.

We all have choices to make in our lives:

Are you an obidient machine who does as he's been told or are you a living being endowed with free will?

The one who gave us free will cannot punish us for using it.

that is a valid response. I applaud you for it. However it fails for a few reasons. If you were God and you created a human race with free will, and they chose to do good with it, you would reward them, if they chose to do bad, you would punish them. As any good parent would do. So your comment fails this test.

 

[createdtoworship]

Punishment for a million sins should still not be eternal suffering.

But in any case you believe this applies to the kid who commits ONE sin and then dies, too. You believe Anne Frank is in hell right now, right (she almost certainly wasn't saved). And you believe she deserves every bit of torment, knowing she will never ever escape the horrors of hell.

And yet at the same time you think it was wrong to starve and gas her, right? Because you have this moral compass that tells you it's obviously not right.

Do you at least see why that doesn't make sense to people?I can't even.Again, don't flatter yourself. Where you see solid arguments I see a lot of assumptions, ignorance and moving of goal posts. We don't have to debate that here, but just know that what you think you are saying and what others think you are saying, are not aligned.Actually, I did want Christianity for the longest time. I lost faith against my will. I'm fine now, but the transition was horrible for me.No, but I wouldn't have allowed them to torture each other to death, to start wars, I wouldn't have allowed all the horrible diseases, I wouldn't send them to hell, I would've put an upper threshold to pain that was much lower than it is, etc.

I give my children freedom. That doesn't mean I must put them on the edge of a cliff to see if they'll jump off or listen to me. They're free, but not to murder each other. I don't have to allow them to burn the house down to know that they love me. I know that they love me, and why. I don't have to put them to any sort of test to be sure of that - and I'm a human being. I don't see why God would need to do something like that.What? Are you confusing this for a different thread?If you've had a serious toothache or a kidney stone you probably know that you can feel pain you didn't even know was possible. All the people being tortured right now definitely knows that. Why did God make it so that we can suffer so tremendously? He could've put a cap on it.I guess you and I have pretty different moral values, or at least tastes. This is the worst "love story" I have ever heard.Yes, of course there must be consequences for doing something like that. But the point is that any unwise behaviour ultimately boils down to ignorance. Slavery happened because people were ignorant of the fact that people are equal. Drunk driving happens when people are ignorant of how intoxicated they are and how dangerous it is.That's because your logic isn't logical, and I have no good reason to believe hell even exists.I... really don't know how to respond to this. I guess my reaction is exactly like yours would be if it was I who said this to you.I find your answers unconvincing, unfounded and self-contradictory.No, you're not getting away with that. You know what I mean, and you know it's reasonable. As I've said before, for the soul in hell it obviously doesn't matter if hell is technically eternal or infinite or neverending or whatever term you put on it. The experience will be of continuous suffering.

At first I thought you were open to the truth regarding this, but you are not. I personally think you rejected God because you fell into sin, and you wanted to justify it, so your sin decieved you and you lost your faith. I know that sounds horrible and confusing, but let me post it in length what happened exactly during your apostacy, and what needs to happen to reverse it.

You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends. Our sin eventually causes us to lose our faith in the gospel message, to the point we don't even believe Jesus existed, or even to the point we don't believe the Bible is true any more. How can he save us from our sins, if we don't believe in Him? How can I go to a hell that I don't believe in? Well, very easily. All apostates will find that one out first hand, what needs to happen now is not a debate on apologetics, but a humble repentance. A calling out to God for help. There is no sacrifice left for the sin of the apostate, but all things are possible with God, if you hurry, God can reverse being an apostate. But you must be willing to give up that same sin that caused the apostacy. If it's an addiction, well there is grace for that. God can help you slowly recover, if you are proud of your sin and don't want to repent, well then you will never recover of apostacy.

 

[Skreeper]

that is a valid response. I applaud you for it. However it fails for a few reasons. If you were God and you created a human race with free will, and they chose to do good with it, you would reward them, if they chose to do bad, you would punish them. As any good parent would do. So your comment fails this test.

If I were God and I wanted my creation to do only what I consider good, then I would have removed their ability to do what I would consider bad/evil.

Why would I give them the ability to do things I don't want them to do and then punish them for doing those things?

 

[createdtoworship]

If I were God and I wanted my creation to do only what I consider good, then I would have removed their ability to do what I would consider bad/evil.

Why would I give them the ability to do things I don't want them to do and then punish them for doing those things?

how would you ever know they truly loved you? How do you know they truly wanted to follow you because they even remotely liked you? I know that as a human you don't desire any feedback whatsoever, as an etopia of sorts does have it's merits. But eventually the perfect utopia, does get lonely.

 

[Skreeper]

how would you ever know they truly loved you? How do you know they truly wanted to follow you because they even remotely liked you? I know that as a human you don't desire any feedback whatsoever, as an etopia of sorts does have it's merits. But eventually the perfect utopia, does get lonely.

A perfect being cannot logically experience loneliness. That is what the word perfect means, without flaws.

And why would I care about the feelings of God anyway? Has he only created us so that he doesn't feel lonely and we xan kiss his feet?

How self-absorbed can you be?

 

[createdtoworship]

A perfect being cannot logically experience loneliness. That is what the word perfect means, without flaws.

I don't think he was lonely because of the trinity, the lonliness was in reference to you being god. If you created only robotic creatures, you would never know if they liked you or despised you because you made them like you.

And why would I care about the feelings of God anyway? Has he only created us so that he doesn't feel lonely and we xan kiss his feet?

How self-absorbed can you be?

God like I said does not get lonely because He has perfect fellowship within the Godhead, but what better way to glorify yourself than to create something that would ultimately choose to love and die for you? Creating a car from scratch is great, restoring a classic car even more awesome. But how about creating a being that could rationalize, think, and love? One that would eventually devote it's life to you, not because they had to but because they genuinely loved you? That creation would become a church that would become the Bride of Christ. And marry into the Godhead and share with the wonder of all creation. There could be no greater creation.