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I refuted your point successfully, please explain how it does not follow.I'm afraid you've wandered off into some strange non-sequitur.
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I refuted your point successfully, please explain how it does not follow.I'm afraid you've wandered off into some strange non-sequitur.
The irony is that my view on annihilationism didn't come by reconstruing Axiological intuitions but rather through applying Hermeneutics. So, to some extent, I'd still agree with ... *ahem* ... @gradyll's OP header statement. ... if it was true.
And if anything, that moral compass says that punishment should fit the crime.Well God put in our hearts a moral compass of what is right and wrong.
God having to separate wills is news to me. He must then be in conflict with himself. Apparently his wish to torture people forever is stronger than his wish to save them.because those are actually entirely different concepts. There is a permissive will of God, and a sovereign will of God. The sovereign will of God is always in God's favor, the permissive will of God can sometimes allow free will to rule over sovereignty.
Do you see eternal torture as an expression of love?Loving people also means being Just and Holy in front of them.
Well that's at least a little consistent - that God doesn't want everybody to be saved.God actually hides the gospel from the natural man, just so that it will be incoherent to him, because if He under stood it, He may be saved. But if God doesn't want you saved, it will be confusing to you.
No offense, but don't flatter yourself.But again, I have proven God's existence in the appropriate thread
Well, as you suggest, apparently God just doesn't want me to be saved.you have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling the Bible says. Pray to God, humble yourself, repent of all known sin, and then come back as ask for me to tell you the Gospel. At that point you will be ready for it.
Nope. I wouldn't have allowed sin at all. And it's not like God couldn't have put a different limit on our lifespan, our ability to suffer, or our ability to hurt others, etc.so you would have fallen short on the aspect of being perfectly just, you would have let sin slide, which is not honorable
If I were God, I would know. I wouldn't have to conduct an experiment (knowing it would result in the eternal suffering of uncountable souls) to figure it out.then you would have only robots in the garden of eden, no free will to choose evil. You would never ever know if your creation truly loved you for who you are, because you would have removed the ability to reject you.
Lucky him! The rest of us will never die, but be tortured by God for eternity.Satan will be killed one day
Of course not. He didn't have the necessary knowledge. Do you think that if any person was faced with heaven and hell, in a way that he could see both 100% clearly, he would choose hell?we make foolish choices all the time, do you think the person who has a hit and run DUI thought about the consequences before He got drunk? No.
I'm asking if you think it's possible that the fault lies with you.Yes it can lie with the christian. A refusal to properly tell the gospel message, can make the christian at fault. So you are correct.
Except that it's not justice in any sense of the word. It's the exact opposite.You don't like true Holy Justice, that is what it boils down to.
So we agree he didn't take our punishment. In other words, he wasn't a substitute.I am not sure hell would have the same affect on God. The punishment would not be the same. Our flesh is not as his flesh, He was resurrected and glorified, and death could no longer hurt him at that point. So hell would be a walk in the park to a glorified being that was God.
How? If the price for sins MUST BE eternity in hell, how come God could just change the rules suddenly?you are correct, he didn't take the same punishment, but He did pay fully for our sins
No, not worse than hell. Jesus' suffering had an end. Ours won't.He was tortured in ways that we would never know. One of the worst thing a person can go through is the torture of a loved one. Say if I wanted to really get to you, I would torture your kid, not you. That would horrify you. And that is what happened on the cross. A fate worse than hell
There are also lots of accounts in the bible where God simply forgives people, and/or is patient with them. What happened to their sins?those are separate issues, the blood of calves and goats in the old testament covered sin, but did not remove sin. Jesus death because of the quality of the sacrifice, completely removed sin, it's known as justification.
Did you just compare eternity in hell with being free to do as one likes on the plains?yeah it's that simple if you program a bunch of robots with no free will to accept or reject you. Free will is the more loving choice. What is more loving to put a lion in a circus to perform like a robot, for ticket money, or let the lion free to do as he likes in the plains of africa?
yes, it does fit the crime perfectly. See the logical case for God sending to hell, in the OP. punishing a person for 30,000 sins in a temporal prison is not good.And if anything, that moral compass says that punishment should fit the crime.
I believe in the soveriegnty of God myself. I believe that He desires all men to be saved, but only saves those who's hearts are ready for Him. So satan in cases like yourself confuses and sometimes possesses an individual so that they cannot comprehend the Gospel, and thus get converted. The Bible says the "god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliever" The god of this world is satan. But yes God has a perfect and a permissive will, for more info check this out. ( I am not making this up), Can you help me understand God's perfect will versus His permissive will? | Bible.orgGod having to separate wills is news to me. He must then be in conflict with himself. Apparently his wish to torture people forever is stronger than his wish to save them.
If true and Holy Justice is love, then Yes eternal torture is love.Do you see eternal torture as an expression of love?
I never said that. He desires all men to be saved the Bible says, but not all men will humble themselves, repent and accept the Gospel. And if they reject God enough, God actually hardens their heart so that repentence becomes impossible (hebrews 6). Pharoah in the old testament, had God harden His heart, leading to His eventual death.Well that's at least a little consistent - that God doesn't want everybody to be saved.
by all means go to that thread and take a whack at trying to defeat the solid logic presented.No offense, but don't flatter yourself.
Are you humble? Are you broken before God, angry at yourself that you sin has ruined your relationship with God, are you willing to reject all other religions including buddhism, athiesm etc and follow God? Are you willing to repent of lust, inappropriate contentography, and any uncleaness and come to Christ for salvation. To make Him Lord of your life? I don't think you are ready, it's not that God doesn't want you, it's that you don't want Christianity.Well, as you suggest, apparently God just doesn't want me to be saved.
So you would have programmed all humans to only do your will, and have no choice but to follow you. And yet you condemn a parents choice to make their kids attend sunday school even if they don't want to? Lol.Nope. I wouldn't have allowed sin at all.
what do you mean?And it's not like God couldn't have put a different limit on our lifespan, our ability to suffer, or our ability to hurt others, etc.
it's the perfect love story, God creates a free race of man, the majority reject him, but a select few don't. Among that few, He chooses His bride, a bride that He gives His life to save, even though the bride is like a prostitute to Him. He shows perfect sacrificial love, in a way that becomes the only source of perfect sacrificial love in the human race (see my thread "the moral argument for God's existence."If I were God, I would know. I wouldn't have to conduct an experiment (knowing it would result in the eternal suffering of uncountable souls) to figure it out.
I am so sorry you feel that way. That is not the message of Christianity. He doesn't threaten us to love Him. He forgives us, loves us as we are. And then we love Him in return.I mean, my children love me to death. I don't have to allow them to run headfirst into traffic for that to happen. And I certainly don't have to threaten to torture them to death for them to "love" me.
Hell was originally created for Satan. Not us. But He took us down with Him, when He tempted us to sin. Therefore God cursed satan to be bound to the earth, and to crawl on His belly perpetually.I don't even have to do anything in particular. All I have to do is spend time with them. It seems in this regard that I am much more powerful than God.Lucky him! The rest of us will never die, but be tortured by God for eternity.
so your saying that He didn't think ahead of time, yet He will have his licsence revoked and have prison time regardless of not thinking ahead of time.Of course not. He didn't have the necessary knowledge.
I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. Also: Here is a person choosing hell a few posts from now: Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely JustifiedDo you think that if any person was faced with heaven and hell, in a way that he could see both 100% clearly, he would choose hell?
OF course it does. I am not perfect, I make mistakes all the time. God chooses to use me, and that is one of the things I question God on, is His choice in using me.I'm asking if you think it's possible that the fault lies with you.
but I answered all your bullet points, so please reconsider this statement.Except that it's not justice in any sense of the word. It's the exact opposite.
you are using terms that refer to time "life sentence." Eternity in Hell is not a long time, it is outside of time, so the comparison is wrong.Again, I have to ask: if your body somehow lived forever, and you stole something, say, a pack of gums, would it be fair to give you a life sentence for that theft?
you are correct, He didn't take the same punishment we would have, He took a worse punishment, as I explained. God separated from the son for a short period, and killed His only son, torturing Him. That is why His salvation is sufficient.So we agree he didn't take our punishment. In other words, he wasn't a substitute.
the wages of sin is death. But since our sins were done by an eternal soul, the death must be eternal. Jesus never sinned and thus does not qualify for Hell, He, being a perfect lamb without blemish was tortured and killed for someone else. Remember in the old testament a simple sacrificial lamb was enough to allow someone to go to paradise. This time it was God's son.How? If the price for sins MUST BE eternity in hell, how come God could just change the rules suddenly?No, not worse than hell. Jesus' suffering had an end. Ours won't.
you are correct, that is an error in evangelism, but I disagree that he wasn't our substitute.But in any case it boils down to that Jesus didn't in fact take MY punishment.
Like I said in the old testament you could take a prized asset (say a lamb that was worth a lot of money) and you could sacrifice it to cover your sins. This allowed you to go to paradise. when Jesus (our perfect lamb) was killed and tortured, this perfect lamb not only covered sins, but removed them forever. Jesus did suffer, it's just that he did not get hell, he got something worse. God was forced to kill the love of his life, and torture him, to save His wife. That is a fate worse than hell.It HAS to be suffered, but Jesus doesn't suffer it, yet his death somehow covers it.There are also lots of accounts in the bible where God simply forgives people, and/or is patient with them. What happened to their sins?
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Just sayin, I would not want to party in hell cause all your friends will be there.
thats just foolish.
But where else can I pledge my allegiance to the demon overlord and recieve my superb powers if not in Hell?
that is a misconception. Satan will not rule over hell, he will be an inmate. In fact hell was created specifically for Him. We go there when Satan took us down with him, by tempting our corporate parents in the garden causing a genetic defect of sin. But there will be no superb powers in hell. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Pray to God today, to be spared. Come to Him and recieve His salvation, repent of your sin and Give God your life.
Punishment for a million sins should still not be eternal suffering.yes, it does fit the crime perfectly. See the logical case for God sending to hell, in the OP. punishing a person for 30,000 sins in a temporal prison is not good
I can't even.If true and Holy Justice is love, then Yes eternal torture is love.
Again, don't flatter yourself. Where you see solid arguments I see a lot of assumptions, ignorance and moving of goal posts. We don't have to debate that here, but just know that what you think you are saying and what others think you are saying, are not aligned.by all means go to that thread and take a whack at trying to defeat the solid logic presented.
Actually, I did want Christianity for the longest time. I lost faith against my will. I'm fine now, but the transition was horrible for me.Are you broken before God, angry at yourself that you sin has ruined your relationship with God, are you willing to reject all other religions including buddhism, athiesm etc and follow God? Are you willing to repent of lust, inappropriate contentography, and any uncleaness and come to Christ for salvation. To make Him Lord of your life? I don't think you are ready, it's not that God doesn't want you, it's that you don't want Christianity.
No, but I wouldn't have allowed them to torture each other to death, to start wars, I wouldn't have allowed all the horrible diseases, I wouldn't send them to hell, I would've put an upper threshold to pain that was much lower than it is, etc.So you would have programmed all humans to only do your will, and have no choice but to follow you.
What? Are you confusing this for a different thread?And yet you condemn a parents choice to make their kids attend sunday school even if they don't want to?
If you've had a serious toothache or a kidney stone you probably know that you can feel pain you didn't even know was possible. All the people being tortured right now definitely knows that. Why did God make it so that we can suffer so tremendously? He could've put a cap on it.what do you mean?
I guess you and I have pretty different moral values, or at least tastes. This is the worst "love story" I have ever heard.it's the perfect love story, God creates a free race of man, the majority reject him, but a select few don't. Among that few, He chooses His bride, a bride that He gives His life to save, even though the bride is like a prostitute to Him. He shows perfect sacrificial love, in a way that becomes the only source of perfect sacrificial love in the human race (see my thread "the moral argument for God's existence."
Yes, of course there must be consequences for doing something like that. But the point is that any unwise behaviour ultimately boils down to ignorance. Slavery happened because people were ignorant of the fact that people are equal. Drunk driving happens when people are ignorant of how intoxicated they are and how dangerous it is.so your saying that He didn't think ahead of time, yet He will have his licsence revoked and have prison time regardless of not thinking ahead of time
That's because your logic isn't logical, and I have no good reason to believe hell even exists.I have explained hell to you numerous times, the logic of it, and it's reality, yet you refuse to believe.
I... really don't know how to respond to this. I guess my reaction is exactly like yours would be if it was I who said this to you.So when you are judged God will quote this forum, and say, "see I sent my messengers to attempt to explain it to you, yet you plugged your ears and did not heed the warnings"
I find your answers unconvincing, unfounded and self-contradictory.but I answered all your bullet points, so please reconsider this statement.
No, you're not getting away with that. You know what I mean, and you know it's reasonable. As I've said before, for the soul in hell it obviously doesn't matter if hell is technically eternal or infinite or neverending or whatever term you put on it. The experience will be of continuous suffering.you are using terms that refer to time "life sentence." Eternity in Hell is not a long time, it is outside of time, so the comparison is wrong.
I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that you actually think Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected is somehow a worse fate than eternity in hell.you are correct, He didn't take the same punishment we would have, He took a worse punishment, as I explained.
I don't kneel and beg, I learned to walk upright at an early age.
We all have choices to make in our lives:
Are you an obidient machine who does as he's been told or are you a living being endowed with free will?
The one who gave us free will cannot punish us for using it.
Punishment for a million sins should still not be eternal suffering.
But in any case you believe this applies to the kid who commits ONE sin and then dies, too. You believe Anne Frank is in hell right now, right (she almost certainly wasn't saved). And you believe she deserves every bit of torment, knowing she will never ever escape the horrors of hell.
And yet at the same time you think it was wrong to starve and gas her, right? Because you have this moral compass that tells you it's obviously not right.
Do you at least see why that doesn't make sense to people?I can't even.Again, don't flatter yourself. Where you see solid arguments I see a lot of assumptions, ignorance and moving of goal posts. We don't have to debate that here, but just know that what you think you are saying and what others think you are saying, are not aligned.Actually, I did want Christianity for the longest time. I lost faith against my will. I'm fine now, but the transition was horrible for me.No, but I wouldn't have allowed them to torture each other to death, to start wars, I wouldn't have allowed all the horrible diseases, I wouldn't send them to hell, I would've put an upper threshold to pain that was much lower than it is, etc.
I give my children freedom. That doesn't mean I must put them on the edge of a cliff to see if they'll jump off or listen to me. They're free, but not to murder each other. I don't have to allow them to burn the house down to know that they love me. I know that they love me, and why. I don't have to put them to any sort of test to be sure of that - and I'm a human being. I don't see why God would need to do something like that.What? Are you confusing this for a different thread?If you've had a serious toothache or a kidney stone you probably know that you can feel pain you didn't even know was possible. All the people being tortured right now definitely knows that. Why did God make it so that we can suffer so tremendously? He could've put a cap on it.I guess you and I have pretty different moral values, or at least tastes. This is the worst "love story" I have ever heard.Yes, of course there must be consequences for doing something like that. But the point is that any unwise behaviour ultimately boils down to ignorance. Slavery happened because people were ignorant of the fact that people are equal. Drunk driving happens when people are ignorant of how intoxicated they are and how dangerous it is.That's because your logic isn't logical, and I have no good reason to believe hell even exists.I... really don't know how to respond to this. I guess my reaction is exactly like yours would be if it was I who said this to you.I find your answers unconvincing, unfounded and self-contradictory.No, you're not getting away with that. You know what I mean, and you know it's reasonable. As I've said before, for the soul in hell it obviously doesn't matter if hell is technically eternal or infinite or neverending or whatever term you put on it. The experience will be of continuous suffering.
that is a valid response. I applaud you for it. However it fails for a few reasons. If you were God and you created a human race with free will, and they chose to do good with it, you would reward them, if they chose to do bad, you would punish them. As any good parent would do. So your comment fails this test.
how would you ever know they truly loved you? How do you know they truly wanted to follow you because they even remotely liked you? I know that as a human you don't desire any feedback whatsoever, as an etopia of sorts does have it's merits. But eventually the perfect utopia, does get lonely.If I were God and I wanted my creation to do only what I consider good, then I would have removed their ability to do what I would consider bad/evil.
Why would I give them the ability to do things I don't want them to do and then punish them for doing those things?
how would you ever know they truly loved you? How do you know they truly wanted to follow you because they even remotely liked you? I know that as a human you don't desire any feedback whatsoever, as an etopia of sorts does have it's merits. But eventually the perfect utopia, does get lonely.
A perfect being cannot logically experience loneliness. That is what the word perfect means, without flaws.
And why would I care about the feelings of God anyway? Has he only created us so that he doesn't feel lonely and we xan kiss his feet?
How self-absorbed can you be?