What would it take to make you a Christian?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I wish you always well and happy in Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

Sigh.

 

[Sanoy]

Not exactly. According to Jewish and Christian claims, their religions result from great revelations at key moments in time. I would expect to see historical evidence for great changes in their religions at key moments followed by periods of stability. Instead, I see something more like one of those online collective stories where one person writes a paragraph and then another person writes a paragraph so that the story has no direction. If God is inspiring a religion then I expect to see a consistent direction and theme and a rate of progress that contrasts that religion with the bumbling uninspired competing religions. Instead Judaism and Christianity seem to bumble along like all the other religions.

And that is only one of many issues I have with Christianity. After a person takes off the blinders of childhood indoctrination and sees with a less biased perspective, it is difficult to take any of it seriously. There is a period of time when a skeptic hasn't entirely given up hope that the childhood Christian faith can be restored through a new and more mature perspective. Those are probably the people who write the testimonials about being atheist and returning to Christianity. But eventually a skeptic sadly accepts what is seen without the blinders and it is hard to imagine any evidence that could change what is seen.

The first and only event we have in the OT that would yield a complex formalized religion is from Moses. There is no other event that passes on a code of behavior until Jesus. (in the interim all we have are statements about what God will do in the prophets, historical works, and poetry). I see scripture in the exact opposite way, it doesn't seem to be a narrative that is carried forward a step at a time from A to B, B to C, C to D. It seems to be carried forward by the overlapping of A B and C. Between Moses and Jesus you have the prophets whose individual prophecies are narrow and vague but become more clear and broad when you overlay them. Every time I read it I'm blown away at how such disparate and differing books can assemble across the same backbone of Gods story to us.

I went through the same thing going through the church. I started to get very skeptical, not of God, but of the Bible. I'd ask tough questions and get the same garbage answers from everyone one as if they all rehearsed the same answers. I decided I'd leave the church and see if I could live without it. I did for a while. I wish I could say that I had an epiphany that sorted out my skepticism but I didn't. I had a dark night of the soul that nearly left me dead. And there was this voice that shook me, saying "endure", "endure"..."endure". He gave me the strength to go home, and every night I would suffer tremendously. I told my mom to pray for me and she did. I knew every night when she forgot to pray for me because the torment would start again.

Skepticism is very easy, and answers are very hard. So after I recovered I started studying the ANE, philosophy, and Biblical scholarship to handle my own skeptical questions and to be a person in the world that will not cause what happened to me, and probably you as well in the church. You never know when Gods going to meet me you, even when He seems so distant and blocked by obstacles.

 

[ananda]

I suspect peace would come from BELIEVING (possibly mistakenly believing) that everything is as it should be. If your newborn dies unexpectedly, you can have peace if you truly believe that this apparent tragedy was somehow necessary in God's plan.

Hypothetically speaking, do you perceive it as a personal tragedy if you hear of a newborn dying halfway across the world in an unknown land? Is that - or, how is that - fundamentally different than if your own newborn died?

Why should perfect peace & bliss be the goal? Maybe there is something we need to do besides experiencing peace & bliss?

I'm not sure if perfect peace & bliss is the goal for others, but it is for me. It is what I perceive to be the core motivating factor behind all my actions, thoughts, and speech. Do you perceive a more fundamental goal than that?

 

[holo]

I find it odd that some people believe in happenstance and can't see the forest for the trees. Life is a masterpiece of creation, it is uniform and purposeful not chaotic or random.

What is the purpose of it and how do you see or find that purpose apart from believing the biblical narrative to begin with?

 

[holo]

Either believe in The Messiah for eternal life or not, either believe the evidence presented in the Bible or not. simple plan

A simple plan maybe, but not very effective. That's one of the things that make it really hard for me to believe the typical Christian narrative anymore - that God wants everybody to believe in Christ, and the way he tries to make it happen is by having people assemble scriptures over thousands of years, and then it's up to people to get their hands on a decent translation of it, interpret it correctly and act on it. As we know only a minority ever gets to hear some parts of the scriptures, and within that minority is a tiny minority who gets to interpret it the right way. I mean come on...

 

[cloudyday2]

Hypothetically speaking, do you perceive it as a personal tragedy if you hear of a newborn dying halfway across the world in an unknown land? Is that - or, how is that - fundamentally different than if your own newborn died?

The same reason that stubbing my own toe is more painful than reading about somebody else stubbing their toe.

I'm not sure if perfect peace & bliss is the goal for others, but it is for me. It is what I perceive to be the core motivating factor behind all my actions, thoughts, and speech. Do you perceive a more fundamental goal than that?

I was reading this quote a few days ago that seems applicable:

Logotherapy is based on an existential analysis[6] focusing on Kierkegaard's will to meaning as opposed to Adler's Nietzschean doctrine of will to power or Freud's will to pleasure. Rather than power or pleasure, logotherapy is founded upon the belief that striving to find meaning in life is the primary, most powerful motivating and driving force in humans

Logotherapy - Wikipedia

So seeking perfect peace and bliss sounds somewhat like Freud's "will to pleasure". It all depends on what we mean by peace and bliss. We might define peace and bliss as achieving our goal in life, and then to say that peace and bliss is the motivation for every human is a tautology.

My motivation is to do my best without knowing what I am supposed to be doing in life.

 

[d taylor]

A simple plan maybe, but not very effective. That's one of the things that make it really hard for me to believe the typical Christian narrative anymore - that God wants everybody to believe in Christ, and the way he tries to make it happen is by having people assemble scriptures over thousands of years, and then it's up to people to get their hands on a decent translation of it, interpret it correctly and act on it. As we know only a minority ever gets to hear some parts of the scriptures, and within that minority is a tiny minority who gets to interpret it the right way. I mean come on...

When the early church was being established (Paul's time) the Bible states the whole world was given the gospel.
Colossians 1
which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So the areas that you see which you think has never heard of God (of the Bible). In the past their forefathers was given the gospel, then the ones who rejected it, is seen now in their state of false beliefs.

 

[He is the way]

What is the purpose of it and how do you see or find that purpose apart from believing the biblical narrative to begin with?

I believe that the purpose of life is to learn as much as we can. I also believe that learning to LOVE others should be a priority.

 

[holo]

When the early church was being established (Paul's time) the Bible states the whole world was given the gospel.
Colossians 1
which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So the areas that you see which you think has never heard of God (of the Bible). In the past their forefathers was given the gospel, then the ones who rejected it, is seen now in their state of false beliefs.

If Paul's words are true here, then either God miraculously had every human, or at least one person in every part of the world, hear the gospel - only for the vast majority to reject it, or Paul didn't mean "all the world" literally.

In any case it still baffles me why God wouldn't make his wishes perfectly clear to every human he would like to know it.

edit: I think I would need some sort of reasonable answers to questions like this if I should ever be able to believe again.

 

[holo]

I believe that the purpose of life is to learn as much as we can. I also believe that learning to LOVE others should be a priority.

That's all good, but when I look at the world, it doesn't at all seem obvious to me that this would be the purpose of existence.

 

[dlamberth]

I believe that the purpose of life is to learn as much as we can. I also believe that learning to LOVE others should be a priority.

Which is pretty much a universal perspective across many spiritual trajectories. It's about learning to be a more human, Human Being.

 

[ananda]

The same reason that stubbing my own toe is more painful than reading about somebody else stubbing their toe.

I agree, it's because we have a greater attachment to our own toe/newborn/etc. rather than the toes/newborns/etc. of others. This validates this portion of the Buddhist teachings, at least for me.

I was reading this quote a few days ago that seems applicable:

Logotherapy - Wikipedia

So seeking perfect peace and bliss sounds somewhat like Freud's "will to pleasure". It all depends on what we mean by peace and bliss. We might define peace and bliss as achieving our goal in life, and then to say that peace and bliss is the motivation for every human is a tautology.

My motivation is to do my best without knowing what I am supposed to be doing in life.

Perhaps. Whatever our summum bonum might be (whether it's perfect peace/bliss, will to pleasure, achieving goals in life/etc.) - if a claimed deity cannot provide it to me, then I would say I have reason to doubt it.

 

[He is the way]

That's all good, but when I look at the world, it doesn't at all seem obvious to me that this would be the purpose of existence.

Yet understanding is what many people seek. LOVE is what everyone needs.

 

[He is the way]

Which is pretty much a universal perspective across many spiritual trajectories. It's about learning to be a more human, Human Being.

I would change one word by adding an e, it's about learning to be a more humane, Human Being.

 

[d taylor]

If Paul's words are true here, then either God miraculously had every human, or at least one person in every part of the world, hear the gospel - only for the vast majority to reject it, or Paul didn't mean "all the world" literally.

In any case it still baffles me why God wouldn't make his wishes perfectly clear to every human he would like to know it.

edit: I think I would need some sort of reasonable answers to questions like this if I should ever be able to believe again.

Well what about the millennium reign of Jesus the Messiah, God will for a 1000 yeras rule on earth but still at the end there are people who will side with satan to go against God.
The earth will be in a near perfect state all the problems that are blamed on God now a days will not be present but again still people will reject God over their own desires.
You will not have any atheist, agnostics, etc... and i believe that gets at the real root of the problem. People will just hate the idea of a greater creator being. they want it their own way and not be subject to rule it can be summed up in simple humility or the lack of.

 

[dlamberth]

Well what about the millennium reign of Jesus the Messiah, God will for a 1000 yeras rule on earth but still at the end there are people who will side with satan to go against God.
The earth will be in a near perfect state all the problems that are blamed on God now a days will not be present but again still people will reject God over their own desires.
You will not have any atheist, agnostics, etc... and i believe that gets at the real root of the problem. People will just hate the idea of a greater creator being. they want it their own way and not be subject to rule it can be summed up in simple humility or the lack of.

In response to the question asked in the OP, it is exactly this kind of gobbledygook that for me gets into the way of being a Christian.

 

[dlamberth]

I would change one word by adding an e, it's about learning to be a more humane, Human Being.

Though it's important, I think that being humane is only part of what it means to be a more human, Human Being. There's so much more going on.

 

[holo]

Well what about the millennium reign of Jesus the Messiah, God will for a 1000 yeras rule on earth but still at the end there are people who will side with satan to go against God.
The earth will be in a near perfect state all the problems that are blamed on God now a days will not be present but again still people will reject God over their own desires.
You will not have any atheist, agnostics, etc... and i believe that gets at the real root of the problem. People will just hate the idea of a greater creator being. they want it their own way and not be subject to rule it can be summed up in simple humility or the lack of.

And yet God, had he wanted to, could have made it so that would never happen.

 

[He is the way]

Though it's important, I think that being humane is only part of what it means to be a more human, Human Being. There's so much more going on.

I like Diana Ross's song, what the world needs now is LOVE sweet LOVE, it's the only thing there is just too little of. I believe that the gospel is all about LOVE, kindness, charity, humility, etc.

 

[d taylor]

And yet God, had he wanted to, could have made it so that would never happen.

Well this reminders me of, when a young fellow (jr high 6th,7th, grades) finds out a girl likes him. But instead of possibly liking her back he begins to find things wrong with her to give him excuses to not return her affection. May be because of pressure from fellow guy friends or she may not be the most attractive girl in class.
And not only at times does he not like her back but in the process of finding out perceived faults in her, he will even speak bad of this girl. Just to make sure his friends really know that he does not like her back. Then as time goes on and they get older and finally arrive at their senior age, he discovers that she is now the most beautiful girl in the school.

God does not just like people, He loves and has opened the door for any person who has ever lived or will live to receive eternal life. But like the boy, many people instead of receiving Gods love and eternal life. They began to find fault with God so as to give them an excuse but what they fail to realize that those excuses will do them no good one day when they find out God is love, true and just.