What would it take to make you a Christian?

[cloudyday2]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

 

[maintenance man]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

From my perspective, everyone who doesn’t believe is actively putting up a barrier to the obvious truth.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Forgive me for saying this, but sometimes I think maybe some don't believe because of a kind of charicature of Christianity that they see. Christianity is a VASTLY varied landscape in these days, and wherever we fit in it we surely see others as WAY off base.

A lot of popular attitudes and teachings are of the sort that I think would drive most thinking people away from Christianity. The faith wasn't based on those sorts of things.

We need to be the kinds of people who draw others to actually see Christ in us. The kind of people who were so compelling that even when they were being martyred, onlookers would suddenly be convinced of the truth and even proclaim it though it meant they would be martyred as well. (Not that I'm hoping for a return to Christian persecution, it's just that this provides the most concrete proof that people were actually convinced by seeing true Christians.)

ETA: If the Holy Spirit is evident within us, people should be able to see us as different for it!

 

[Dansiph]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

From my perspective, everyone who doesn’t believe is actively putting up a barrier to the obvious truth.

This Verse immediately came to mind when you said evidence.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 King James Version

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[He is the way]

From my perspective, everyone who doesn’t believe is actively putting up a barrier to the obvious truth.

I find it odd that some people believe in happenstance and can't see the forest for the trees. Life is a masterpiece of creation, it is uniform and purposeful not chaotic or random.

 

[cloudyday2]

Forgive me for saying this, but sometimes I think maybe some don't believe because of a kind of charicature of Christianity that they see. Christianity is a VASTLY varied landscape in these days, and wherever we fit in it we surely see others as WAY off base.

A lot of popular attitudes and teachings are of the sort that I think would drive most thinking people away from Christianity. The faith wasn't based on those sorts of things.

We need to be the kinds of people who draw others to actually see Christ in us. The kind of people who were so compelling that even when they were being martyred, onlookers would suddenly be convinced of the truth and even proclaim it though it meant they would be martyred as well. (Not that I'm hoping for a return to Christian persecution, it's just that this provides the most concrete proof that people were actually convinced by seeing true Christians.)

ETA: If the Holy Spirit is evident within us, people should be able to see us as different for it!

I was thinking about myself this morning, and I realized that I have transitioned from waiting for the Christian God (the only God I considered) to do something in my life ... to now where I can't imagine anything that would make me believe in Christianity. I halfway believe in a generic God, but it seems obvious to me that Judaism evolved from Canaanite religion gradually and Christianity evolved from Judaism. Jesus hanging on the cross as a some sort of sacrifice for the sins of the world is just not something I think I can take seriously ever again.

For example, if Jesus appeared and showed me his crucifixion wounds and offered to let me stick my hand in his side (like doubting Thomas), I would probably be thinking that somebody slipped some LSD into my coffee. I wouldn't believe in Jesus.

I guess it makes me melancholy. For most of my adult life I was highly skeptical about Christianity, but I left it at that. That was a nice middle ground that gave me some small connection with actively Christian family members. Now I see the whole religious thing as a cruel joke that cost me and so many others so much.

I never would have made the effort to read and think about Christianity enough to completely disbelieve had I not had a mental breakdown 10 years ago. I would have preferred to leave Christianity as a question mark.

 

[ananda]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

I would require personally validated proof of the Christian deity's omniscience & omnipotence, and proof that it itself possesses and can grant the summum bonum I seek - perfect peace & bliss.

I do not seek or care for eternal life, nor new heavens or a new earth, nor an eternal city, nor a kingdom or greatness or a room in it, nor white garments, nor a pillar in the temple of god, nor the privilege of eating from a special tree, nor a white stone or a new name. (It reminds me of a quote supposedly made by Napoleon: “A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon”) None of that matters to me. I simply seek perfect peace & bliss.

 

[d taylor]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

Evidence is in the Bible and only there and for the current age. The Gospel of John is the only book of the Bible written just for the purpose of, telling people how to have life (eternal life).

Now a person may read the Gospel of John and not believe the evidence presented in the Gospel. But that is it God has given no other options. Either believe in The Messiah for eternal life or not, either believe the evidence presented in the Bible or not. simple plan

 

[-57]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

The bible pretty much says God has to give you the ability to believe.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

People are dead in their sins and trespasses and can't understand the things of God. They must be regenerated by God.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

I can talk to a non-christian until I am blue in the face presenting tons of evidence, but, until God opens their heart they will reject the evidence.

 

[dlamberth]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

Why would I want to be a "Christian?" On the one hand we have Christ, the essence of Love and Life. And the other we have Christianity with all of it's rules, dogma and such. And it's only rarely that they cross paths.

 

[cloudyday2]

I would require personally validated proof of the Christian deity's omniscience & omnipotence, and proof that it itself possesses and can grant the summum bonum I seek - perfect peace & bliss.

I do not seek or care for eternal life, nor new heavens or a new earth, nor an eternal city, nor a kingdom or greatness or a room in it, nor white garments, nor a pillar in the temple of god, nor the privilege of eating from a special tree, nor a white stone or a new name. (It reminds me of a quote supposedly made by Napoleon: “A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon”) None of that matters to me. I simply seek perfect peace & bliss.

Yeah, but let's just say that you are convinced of the Christian God's existence, and He tells you that He can't give you perfect peace & bliss, and He also tells you that Buddhism can't give you perfect peace & bliss either. HOWEVER, God CAN give you a pair of golden slippers. It's either the golden slippers or the lake of fire. ... You are going to opt for the golden slippers - right?

 

[cloudyday2]

Why would I want to be a "Christian?" On the one hand we have Christ, the essence of Love and Life. And the other we have Christianity with all of it's rules, dogma and such. And it's only rarely that they cross paths.

You might not WANT to be a Christian, but you might unintentionally stumble across evidence that forces you to believe in the standard Christians ideas. What evidence might do that for you?

 

[TheOldWays]

Some people I suspect are open if they found some reasons to believe (evidence), and other people have reasons to disbelieve that would trump any evidence.

good question. i am pretty content with my current path so not sure if there could be much to convince me to return to the faith besides something pretty blatant. i was a Christian for many years and while it wasn't sunshine and rainbows when i left, after a few years of struggles I find myself happier and more content then I was as a Christian. Would almost feel like going backwards to get back into that mindset.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was thinking about myself this morning, and I realized that I have transitioned from waiting for the Christian God (the only God I considered) to do something in my life ... to now where I can't imagine anything that would make me believe in Christianity. I halfway believe in a generic God, but it seem obvious to me that Judaism evolved from Canaanite religion gradually and Christianity evolved from Judaism. Jesus hanging on the cross as a some sort of sacrifice for the sins of the world is just not something I think I can take seriously ever again.

Well ... IMO it is precisely the western understanding of the sacrifice of Christ (not that He wasn't a sacrifice in a sense, but the way the west interprets the whole thing) ... that is the biggest stumbling block. That's why I said "forgive me". Without understanding what I mean, I suspect most Christians would consider me to be blaspheming.

But if I hadn't encountered the teaching as a child and so accepted it on some level (despite my misgivings about what kind of God the Father seemed to be!) ... I probably wouldn't be Christian either.

I like something I heard recently. I WISH I could remember it better. It was something an Orthodox scholar explained with beautiful simplicity, for people who had no religious affiliation at all.

He briefly explained the welll-known western pov that "God is lawgiver, we are lawbreakers, and our problem is that an angry God is going to judge us ..."

But then he explained our ancient understanding. The condition/problem of mankind is death. We all die, not because God is angry with us and punishing us, but because of physics. If we retreat from the source of life (God) we will die, and that's what we have done. The purpose of the Incarnation of Christ is to solve that problem --- God brings His divine life to humanity. Our entire living out of the Christian life is just our entering into that life and participating in it, so that we can be remade in God's image and likeness and once again have life. God is healer/redeemer, not primarily an angry punisher. Which is much more fitting as He describes Himself as "love".

Anyway. The contrast is rather stark. And there are not so many adults who can take the idea of penal substitution with fully rational thought and accept this is both justice and love. I know all the mental arguments - I grew up evangelical.

Another thing ... I actually am fascinated with the intuitive beliefs of many who are not Christian. Especially those who tend to call themselves "spiritual but not religious". At their core, they often know spiritual truths - the supreme being is more reasonably seen as love, there is an unseen spiritual realm, something in humans is meant to go on, the way we treat others matters, the entirety of creation is connected, and so on. They know these things in their spirit. But sometimes Christianity presents charicatures they can't reconcile with what they know to be true. I think God Himself in some way lets people recognize such truths. I pray it is for their ultimate benefit.

 

[cloudyday2]

good question. i am pretty content with my current path so not sure if there could be much to convince me to return to the faith besides something pretty blatant. i was a Christian for many years and while it wasn't sunshine and rainbows when i left, after a few years of struggles I find myself happier and more content then I was as a Christian. Would almost feel like going backwards to get back into that mindset.

Let's say you and a friend whose leg was amputated go to a Benny Hinn gathering, and your friend's leg miraculously grows back before your bewildered eyes.

I'm asking, because that wouldn't convince me to be a Christian. I would think that the generic God had chosen to act through Benny Hinn and his Christian framework to miraculously regrow my friend's leg. Perhaps the generic God only cares that people believe SOMETHING and Christianity is an easy way to reach people in Christian cultures.

 

[cloudyday2]

But then he explained our ancient understanding. The condition/problem of mankind is death. We all die, not because God is angry with us and punishing us, but because of physics. If we retreat from the source of life (God) we will die, and that's what we have done. The purpose of the Incarnation of Christ is to solve that problem --- God brings His divine life to humanity. Our entire living out of the Christian life is just our entering into that life and participating in it, so that we can be remade in God's image and likeness and once again have life. God is healer/redeemer, not primarily an angry punisher. Which is much more fitting as He describes Himself as "love".

We still need to explain how Judaism served any purpose. How does catching the blood of sacrificial animals in bowls and throwing that blood on an altar serve any purpose? Why a thousand years and probably millions of needless animal deaths and then the even more gruesome spectacle of the Crucifixion? Why not incarnate in Isaac and get Christianity going 1500 years earlier? For that matter, why go through billions of years of evolution and millions of years of human evolution? The average life expectancy in the stone age was 25. Imagine how difficult life must have been for our ancestors to die at the age of 25. Why not incarnate back in the stone age? Why let those misguided shamans dance around in animal skins for 100,000 years?

Another thing ... I actually am fascinated with the intuitive beliefs of many who are not Christian. Especially those who tend to call themselves "spiritual but not religious". At their core, they often know spiritual truths - the supreme being is more reasonably seen as love, there is an unseen spiritual realm, something in humans is meant to go on, the way we treat others matters, the entirety of creation is connected, and so on. They know these things in their spirit. But sometimes Christianity presents charicatures they can't reconcile with what they know to be true. I think God Himself in some way lets people recognize such truths. I pray it is for their ultimate benefit.

I suppose some of the common thinking comes from Western culture that was influenced by Christian thinking. I wonder how many world religions have that common thinking? The Aztec religion doesn't appear to have been particularly loving, but most religions have an afterlife.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We still need to explain how Judaism served any purpose. How does catching the blood of sacrificial animals in bowls and throwing that blood on an altar serve any purpose? Why a thousand years and probably millions of needless animal deaths and then the even more gruesome spectacle of the Crucifixion? Why not incarnate in Isaac and get Christianity going 1500 years earlier? For that matter, why go through billions of years of evolution and millions of years of human evolution? The average life expectancy in the stone age was 25. Imagine how difficult life must have been for our ancestors to die at the age of 25. Why not incarnate back in the stone age? Why let those misguided shamans dance around in animal skins for 100,000 years?


I suppose some of the common thinking comes from Western culture that was influenced by Christian thinking. I wonder how many world religions have that common thinking? The Aztec religion doesn't appear to have been particularly loving, but most religions have an afterlife.

All I can say is that thinking back on it, nobody was LISTENING to God for some time. And when they began to listen, it seems that a lot of their tendencies colored how they perceived what God was saying. I think that's why the God of the OT seems almost completely at odds with the revelation of Jesus - which really isn't possible.

Who knows why God does what He does? The Church taught from early on that when Jesus was in the grave, He descended into Hades and preached to the souls there. They also believe that He emptied Hades - the clear implication being that everyone there accepted His offer to take them to paradise. (I'm being simplistic here, there are different terms and nuances) but the main point is that no one remained in Hades due to their ignorance. Who knows ... maybe those people needed that experience in order to accept reconciliation with God so it was to their ultimate benefit?

One thing I've become keenly aware of in my admittedly slow study of Greek is how much more nuanced and clear the Scriptures are in Greek than the jumble that results from Hebrew. If Jesus had come at the time of Isaac and we had writings and teachings only from then, it might be impossible to rely on writings to find any truth at all. That's just my musing though.

 

[ananda]

Yeah, but let's just say that you are convinced of the Christian God's existence, and He tells you that He can't give you perfect peace & bliss, and He also tells you that Buddhism can't give you perfect peace & bliss either. HOWEVER, God CAN give you a pair of golden slippers. It's either the golden slippers or the lake of fire. ... You are going to opt for the golden slippers - right?

If he tells me he can't give me perfect peace & bliss, then shall I not conclude that he cannot be the highest? and continue to seek something higher than him? I would then probably believe that he's likely a deluded demiurge-type deity.

 

[He is the way]

Why would I want to be a "Christian?" On the one hand we have Christ, the essence of Love and Life. And the other we have Christianity with all of it's rules, dogma and such. And it's only rarely that they cross paths.

The rules are there to help us to learn what LOVE is. Everything stems from the two greatest commandments of LOVE:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The law of sacrifice was fulfilled by the atonement. Our goal should be to LOVE the way Christ LOVED.

 

[dlamberth]

What evidence might do that for you?

If Christianity not only saw but experienced the Light of God as alive and vibrant within others of other spiritual paths as well as the very foundation of Life itSelf across the whole of the Cosmos, than just maybe that might move me.