Where does morality come from?

[zippy2006]

Like I predicted...

"And don't try to get around it by saying God would never give you such an option or anything like that. Assume that it really is God, and the offer is genuine."

In any case, since you are claiming that this is something God can't do, you've just p[roved God is not all powerful.

lol... My terse posts function in part as troll tests. You failed.

 

[Kylie]

lol... My terse posts function in part as troll tests. You failed.

How am I trolling? You've said that this is something God can't do, which means he is not all powerful.

Another question - Did God create the laws of logic? If so, why is he bound by them? If not, then he didn't create everything.

Or are you just going to resort to calling me a troll when I point out inconsistencies in your position?

 

[zippy2006]

How am I trolling?

Because you're aiming for facile "gotcha" opportunities as someone who is presumably intelligent enough to understand the lay of the land and the obvious rebuttals.

You've said that this is something God can't do, which means he is not all powerful.

It's not exactly a new idea that omnipotence doesn't extend to contradictions. It's been around for millenia. Are you honestly unaware of this?

(Nonsensical propositions lack a proper referent. "Square circle" is just a lexical string of meaningless gibberish.)

 

[Kylie]

Because you're aiming for facile "gotcha" opportunities as someone who is presumably intelligent enough to understand the lay of the land and the obvious rebuttals.



It's not exactly a new idea that omnipotence doesn't extend to contradictions. It's been around for millenia. Are you honestly unaware of this?

(Nonsensical propositions lack a proper referent. "Square circle" is just a lexical string of meaningless gibberish.)

And yet you have completely avoided answering my other question - Did God create the laws of logic? Because depending on how you answer that, your points here will become invalid.

 

[zippy2006]

And yet you have completely avoided answering my other question - Did God create the laws of logic? Because depending on how you answer that, your points here will become invalid.

Not really. "Law of logic" is a reification. Different philosophers will assign different ontological weight to such "laws," but my last response attempted to prescind from those debates and answer the question in a more definitive way. Words refer to ideas and ideas can be coherent or incoherent. Incoherent ideas--which include logical contradictions--have no referent in reality, as explained above. Such an incoherence has no intelligibility, nothing to be instantiated. The inability to instantiate literal nonsense is not a sign of a lack of power.

 

[Strathos]

And atheists accuse us of repeatedly trotting out the same bad arguments...

 

[Kylie]

Not really. "Law of logic" is a reification. Different philosophers will assign different ontological weight to such "laws," but my last response attempted to prescind from those debates and answer the question in a more definitive way. Words refer to ideas and ideas can be coherent or incoherent. Incoherent ideas--which include logical contradictions--have no referent in reality, as explained above. Such an incoherence has no intelligibility, nothing to be instantiated. The inability to instantiate literal nonsense is not a sign of a lack of power.

A lot of technobabble, no actual substance.

Why is it that something can't be A and Not A at the same time? Is that something God decided on, it did that come from somewhere else?

 

[TheSinningServant]

With all due respect, I disagree with you 100%. Let's define morality. Morality is the distinction between good and bad. Are you saying that one cannot know the difference between good and bad without God?

If morality is having knowledge on what is right and wrong, wouldn't you say it is very evident that atheists can have morality seeing as how there are plenty of atheists that have done wonderfully good deeds in their lives? I have witnessed plenty of nonbelievers that have the utmost self-control and do less wrong things than some Christians I know.

You do not have a valid argument at all. Just because one does not believe in God does not mean one does not have conscience and cannot decide what is right and wrong and to chose not to do the latter.

Do not confuse morality and the Holy Spirit which is only for Christians. ""I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17.

You do not need God to do good things. You can be a good person without God. Nonbelievers have consciences to help them decide what is good and bad (how good or bad is based most likely on psychological development during childhood and adolescent years, I'm sure) while believers have the HS to guide them between right and wrong.

So in conclusion, for those who do not believe, they can be moral without a God, because they were given a conscience.

This is all based on my own personal studies in which I formed my opinions on the subject.

 

[Kylie]

With all due respect, I disagree with you 100%.

Is this directed at me?

 

[TheSinningServant]

Is this directed at me?

It is directed towards the person who asked the question

 

[Kylie]

It is directed towards the person who asked the question

You mean the opening post?

 

[Tom 1]

Morality
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior

The principles set forth by God are the moral standards mankind was originally created to live by. However, God created mankind with freewill and we chose/choose otherwise. Mankind is unable to achieve Gods' moral standards without relying on God

and so ...

the result is what we see and experience now .... and yes ... most living by man-made principle/standards (of which each sets for themselves) rather than those as set forth by God.

God is not the failure ... we are.

It's a question that is both straightforward and complicated, I think. The best definitions of what is 'good' that I have come across are that good means things that promote life and the enjoyment of life, in the deepest and most comprehensive sense. What complicates that is that we are constantly grasping for ways to find short term satisfaction which don't align very well with what would be good in a broader sense, not just for us and those closest to us. I think morality can be defined as a deliberate process of tyring to live in a way that maxmimises life and the living of life for all people in a way that recognises our shared responsibilities.

 

[Ken-1122]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Where does morality come from? How are you defining morality? I define morality as the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how they effect me and my neighbor. And it starts from the position that what is helpful to me and my neighbor is good, and what is harmful to me and my neighbor is bad.
If you require instruction from a higher power to accomplish this, you aren't being moral, (your higher power is being moral) you are only being obedient. If you are unable to understand this on your own, you are nothing more than an immoral person who is good at following directions. I'm better than that; I suspect we all are even if some people don't realize it.

 

[zippy2006]

Why is it that something can't be A and Not A at the same time? Is that something God decided on, it did that come from somewhere else?

It's just how reality works. It seems like you have some issues with confronting reality.

 

[Kylie]

It's just how reality works. It seems like you have some issues with confronting reality.

But why does it work that way? Didn't God decide that's the way reality was going to work?

 

[Cis.jd]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Morality can be a good argument to use in the existence of God and how the universe is all designed. However, I don't think it's a good argument to use as proof of the Christian God just based on my experiences with some people here (and in real life).

Many Christians can't determine what is right or wrong, and they unintentionally self-refute the morality argument themselves.

Apparently, many here think that doing good is meaningless because "believing in Jesus" is the only way to heaven-- so a Nazi who has murdered dozens of Jews has more of a chance to go to heaven than a non-christian who helps others, or any of the jews he stuffed in an oven (yes, there are christians here who stated this).

I can go on with more vile points of views i've seen in the christian discussion board, nevertheless I will no longer use or support the morality argument in debates. This doesn't mean I don't believe God to be the law giver but Christians have made this argument problematic.

 

[Ken-1122]

But why does it work that way? Didn't God decide that's the way reality was going to work?

No. It works that way because it is a logical contradiction. IOW if God said otherwise, God would be wrong.

 

[Kylie]

No. It works that way because it is a logical contradiction. IOW if God said otherwise, God would be wrong.

So then God is limited by what logic allows? In other words, God can't do things that are logically impossible?

 

[Strathos]

So then God is limited by what logic allows? In other words, God can't do things that are logically impossible?

Logical impossibilities have no meaning. You might as well ask if colorless green ideas can sleep furiously.

 

[Kylie]

Logical impossibilities have no meaning. You might as well ask if colorless green ideas can sleep furiously.

Don't avoid the question.

Let me make it simple.

Can God create a square circle? Yes or no?