Where does morality come from?

[HitchSlap]

The best system of morality is found in the Bible. It is quite simple and straight forward.

You find stoning your unruly children to be moral?

I'm always dumbfounded by those who claim obtaining morality from an ancient book is superior to reason and logic. SMH

 

[Tree of Life]

You find stoning your unruly children to be moral?

I'm always dumbfounded by those who claim obtaining morality from an ancient book is superior to reason and logic. SMH

Reason and logic alone can never yield moral norms. You can never derive an "ought" from an "is". You've got to have some "oughts" in your assumptions in order to get anywhere with reason and logic. But where did you get those assumptions from? They cannot be accounted for apart from God's existence.

 

[HitchSlap]

Reason and logic alone can never yield moral norms. You can never derive an "ought" from an "is". You've got to have some "oughts" in your assumptions in order to get anywhere with reason and logic. But where did you get those assumptions from? They cannot be accounted for apart from God's existence.

Quoting WLC's unsupportable assertions is inadvisable.

Would you like to have a discussion?

 

[Tree of Life]

Quoting WLC's unsupportable assertions is inadvisable.

Would you like to have a discussion?

I was paraphrasing David Hume, but sure we can have a discussion.

 

[HitchSlap]

I was paraphrasing David Hume, but sure we can have a discussion.

You quoting WLC who was paraphrasing Hume... but I digress.

So, is stoning unruly children moral?

 

[Tree of Life]

You quoting WLC who was paraphrasing Hume... but I digress.

What is WLC?

So, is stoning unruly children moral?

This is a complex question which needs to be evaluated within cultural and historical context.

For example, in the ANE where there was no police force, if someone murdered your brother then it would be up to you to play the avenger of blood and carry out justice by finding and executing that criminal.

Today such vigilante justice wouldn't be moral because we have a much better system in place.

 

[HitchSlap]

What is WLC?



This is a complex question which needs to be evaluated within cultural and historical context.

For example, in the ANE where there was no police force, if someone murdered your brother then it would be up to you to play the avenger of blood and carry out justice by finding and executing that criminal.

Today such vigilante justice wouldn't be moral because we have a much better system in place.

Is that a yes, then?

 

[Tree of Life]

Is that a yes, then?

What God commanded for Israel to do in their situation was not immoral.

 

[HitchSlap]

What God commanded for Israel to do in their situation was not immoral.

So god's morality is situational?

 

[Tree of Life]

So god's morality is situational?

There are certainly situational principles within the moral framework revealed in Scripture.

 

[HitchSlap]

There are certainly situational principles within the moral framework revealed in Scripture.

So not absolute then?

In which situation is it moral to stone a stubborn child, then?

 

[Tree of Life]

So not absolute then?

In which situation is it moral to stone a stubborn child, then?

At least in the context of post-conquest, pre-exhilic, national Israel.

And there are situational ethics in the Old Testament that are not meant to be absolute, to answer your question.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Appeal to the most high standard of morality (the Holiness of God) which most everyone would acknowledge (knowing right from wrong) whether spoken or unspoken, such as the basis for calling the morality involved in monstrosities like the holocaust evil. I suppose if they are neo-Nazi or an antisemitic they might deny the holocaust even took place. However, it exposes their scrambling for justification, the scrambling for an autonomous subjective answer, and the irrationality involved. Do we really need for culture or society to tell us to know the holocaust was absolutely evil? No, absolutely not! So by engaging in this sort of discussion with Atheists, we are acknowledging that God created man in his image and appeal to the work of the law of God written in their hearts.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

What God commanded for Israel to do in their situation was not immoral.

It seems hard for you to just say yes. But you would say that obviously now that would be immoral? Is that according to the Bible or according to your own idea of what you think to be acceptable?

 

[HitchSlap]

At least in the context of post-conquest, pre-exhilic, national Israel.

And there are situational ethics in the Old Testament that are not meant to be absolute, to answer your question.

So a dictate of stoning stubborn children or homosexuals was ok with god at one point in time, but not now? How would you know if it were to become ok or not at some future point in time?

 

[quatona]

I have another very important question to ask of everyone.

I am a firm believer in God and believe that morality is certainly derived from Him and Him alone... that being said, however, I'm wondering how a person would debate this with someone like an Atheist? Atheists do not believe in God, so telling them that morality comes from God would probably not be all that convincing.

If morality comes from God and God only, then there would obviously be no other answer to tell anyone who was asking since the truth is objective and not just some kind of malleable or subjective reality. But, even still, how would someone discuss this point with an Atheist who clearly does not believe in God and seems highly unlikely to cave in to the idea?

Let´s assume for a moment that there is a God;
let´s also assume that morality "comes from God" (I am not quite sure what exactly you mean by that; I am assuming that you mean something like "God has an opinion on moral questions and commands us to behave according to his opinion" - please correct me if I am wrong);
let´s also assume for a moment that "God´s morality" can be known:
I am wondering: Why would I accept God´s opinion as authoritative (and I am not even touching the question why we would consider it "objective")?

 

[Tree of Life]

So a dictate of stoning stubborn children or homosexuals was ok with god at one point in time, but not now?

Basically. This was a civil command given to OT Israel as a theocratic nation. The church today (the heir of Israel) is not a nation and does not have the power of the sword. The church should excommunicate adult children who dishonor their parents, but it should not stone them.

If any nation made it illegal to dishonor ones parents and made this a capital offense, it would be hard to argue from Scripture that this is not permitted.

How would you know if it were to become ok or not at some future point in time?

From what the rest of the Bible says. Some of that is described above.

Since you say you don't believe in God, what basis do you have for saying that stoning children is immoral?

 

[quatona]

Since you say you don't believe in God, what basis do you have for saying that stoning children is immoral?

How exactly is the belief in a God a better (or: more valid) basis than any other possible belief regarding morality?

 

[HitchSlap]

Since you say you don't believe in God, what basis do you have for saying that stoning children is immoral?

Thanks for being honest and admitting that belief in god is justification for stoning stubborn children and homosexuals.

I believe stoning stubborn children and homosexuals is wrong at all times in all situations.

 

[Tree of Life]

Thanks for being honest and admitting that belief in god is justification for stoning stubborn children and homosexuals.

I believe stoning stubborn children and homosexuals is wrong at all times in all situations.

On what basis do you call this "wrong" and what do you mean by "wrong"?