Is anyone's Pastor or Priest okay with abortion? POLL

[SPF]

The whole notion of "leadership" needs some unpacking (as we really have no Master but Christ). Our "leaders" are pastors called by God and by the Church to preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments. We consider human beings deeply sinful and the Church is made of human beings that are equally sinful (the Church is NOT infallible in that way), therefore the Church has no right to compel anyone to do things contrary to their bound conscience that is not in accordance with the Word of God and clear reason. The Church may help the individual in moral deliberation, but the Church should respect the individual's moral agency over their own lives.

Here is our denomination's social statement on abortion. Our social statements should be understood as persuasive rather than coercive, descriptive rather than prescriptive:

Abortion

Here is an article by Pr. Ed Knudson explaining Lutheran ethics, especially pertaining to abortion. Even if you disagree with where he is coming from (he's discussing it in the context of the murder of Dr. George Tiller in 2009), it is a good resource for understanding the Evangelical Lutheran perspective in plain English:

http://religiondispatches.org/on-religion-abortion-and-politics-dr-george-tillers-christian-ethics/

Please note that Dr. George Tiller's vocation is not the only possible Lutheran understanding of abortion ethics. There are Pro-Life Lutherans just as there are Pro-Choice Lutherans. The Lutheran approach is to respect the individual's bound conscience and to encourage people to discern their vocation through a dynamic process that occurs within the person's own subjectivity, shaped by the sacramental life of the Church.

It's probably worth noting that FireDragon's references show he's of the ELCA branch of Lutherans, which is not the original Lutheran denomination, but is a liberal offshoot founded in 1988. It's certainly true that it now represents the largest branch of Lutherans, but the traditional Lutheran position has always been that abortion is immoral.

There's certainly a trend within denominations to become more like culture and secularize, and so we see splits and more liberal, compromising denominations formed, like the ELCA.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's probably worth noting that FireDragon's references show he's of the ELCA branch of Lutherans, which is not the original Lutheran denomination, but is a liberal offshoot founded in 1988.

It is not permitted on this forum to imply that I am not a Lutheran.

We are a uniting church of various smaller Lutheran synods, and not an offshoot of anything. Our church actually has older roots in the US than the LCMS. Heinrich Melchior Muhlenberg set up the first Lutheran synod in the US in the mid 18th century, the Ministerium of Pennsylvania, which later became part of the denomination known as the Lutheran Church in America, which later merged with smaller synods to become the ELCA. We have deep roots as Lutherans in this country, and your statement is simply wrong. Our congregation has members from many different synodical backgrounds, including WELS and the LCMS. Lutherans laity, and even pastors, do not always engage in the sort of polemical and sectarian discourse you seem to think is the only legitimate way to be Lutheran.

Our differences with the LCMS are more than social teachings, but extend to matters of confessional interpretation and ecclessial culture that predate the modernist controversies.

The notion that we are a secular institution under the guise of religion is disgustingly offensive. We just buried a member of our church who was dear to many of us on Saturday. Jeff was a man whose passion for God's Church, being in God's house worshiping in the "beauty of holiness" was just part of who he was. He died an untimely death at only age 58, and we all found a measure of consolation in the hope of the resurrection, that our friend is now with our Savior. We are not a political group disguised as a church. But perhaps your church is?

 

[SPF]

It is not permitted on this forum to imply that I am not a Lutheran.

Oh, you certainly are a Lutheran, I never meant to imply otherwise! You're part of the more liberal Lutheran sect that was formed in 1988.

 

[brinny]

Not everything I said was in direct reply to you. Please forgive me. But that is why I said



This topic tends to engender a lot of debate, so rather than give short replies that could lead to certain misunderstandings and debate, I chose to give more nuanced answers.

Forgive me if this for some reason causes you to be bothered?

No worries. Thank you for the clarification that your post, at least in part, was not related to my post that you responded to.

 

[RaymondG]

Just curious how many here have a pastor or priest who is okay with abortion?

M-Bob

Im not sure this poll will get you the answers you seek.... Do you care to know about whether these pastors support freedom of choice with regards to abortion......or if a pastor or minister would say "It is ok to have abortions...period?" If the latter......you will only receive "no" as I do not believe anyone, religious or not, would make/feel such a statement.

 

[FireDragon76]

Oh, you certainly are a Lutheran, I never meant to imply otherwise! You're part of the more liberal Lutheran sect that was formed in 1988.

Around here "liberal" is typically used as a dirty word or to try to define a church politically, which is inappropriate in this context. We are liberal in the true, classical sense, that we preach the Gospel that gives freedom to those who believe. Luther taught us to have bold confidence in God's grace and to go out into the world to serve our neighbor, and that is the message we proclaim today.

People are free to disagree with our ethics if they are conscience bound to another understanding of the Christian faith, but we understand through the holy Word that God threatens punishment upon all those who slander or libel their neighbor.

 

[PaulCyp1]

No priest of God's Church is "OK" with the brutal slaughter of innocent children.

 

[RaymondG]

No priest of God's Church is "OK" with the brutal slaughter of innocent children.

What do you feel about the millions of miscarriages that happen every year....there are more of those than abortions..... Since most happen in the first tri- They should have similar fates and are just as human as those aborted by human consent.. Do you consider these to be the slaughter of innocent children ?

 

[RaymondG]

And no one would say abortion is ok........this is a human quality....not a religious one. Being pro-choice and not the same as pro-abortion.....which is a made up term.... It would be interesting to see how many ministers are against Choice.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I've never asked my priest but given his opinions on other subjects I believe he would the standard Orthodox position against it.

I do wonder at any religious leader supporting a woman's supposed right to kill the child in the womb. Do they support a woman to kill her child out of convenience? If so, I have to question their Christianity and commitment to a Christian moral vision.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I've never asked my priest but given his opinions on other subjects I believe he would the standard Orthodox position against it.

I do wonder at any religious leader supporting a woman's supposed right to kill the child in the womb. Do they support a woman to kill her child out of convenience? If so, I have to question their Christianity and commitment to a Christian moral vision.

First of all, women do not kill fetuses themselves. Doctors have to do it for them. All women do is make a decision to end their pregnancies.

Convenience is not a word I have ever seen or heard as one reason for an abortion. The only convenience would be taking the Plan B drug (aka "morning after pill") hoping no zygote will settle into one side of her uterus - which is controversial but effective for many women who take it on time.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

First of all, women do not kill fetuses themselves. Doctors have to do it for them. All women do is make a decision to end their pregnancies.

Hiring a hitman doesn't absolve you of responsibility.

Convenience is not a word I have ever seen or heard as one reason for an abortion. The only convenience would be taking the Plan B drug (aka "morning after pill") hoping no zygote will settle into one side of her uterus - which is controversial but effective for many women who take it on time.

Convenience meaning anything less than life threatening. Maybe the woman doesn't want a female child. Maybe she doesn't want a down syndrome kid. Maybe she doesn't just doesn't feel ready to be a mother. Maybe she had sex with a guy who bailed the moment she was pregnant and doesn't want to raise a child by herself. Any number of reasons potentially.

Is it okay for pastors to support this type of abortion? In my mind no.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

hoping no zygote will settle into one side of her uterus - which is controversial but effective for many women who take it on time.

I think the Bible refers to that as a little person as in We the People.

zy·gote
/ˈzīˌɡōt/
nounBIOLOGY
a diploid cell resulting from the fusion of two haploid gametes; a fertilized ovum.


M-Bob

 

[GodLovesCats]

I think the Bible refers to that as a little person as in We the People.

zy·gote
/ˈzīˌɡōt/
nounBIOLOGY
a diploid cell resulting from the fusion of two haploid gametes; a fertilized ovum.

Nowhere in that dictionary definition (which is not copied from the Bible) is the word person. Women take Plan B thinking if fertilization occrs, it is still just one cell floating around, not a "little perosn."

Also, "We the People" does not refer to all fertilized human cells.

 

[SPF]

Nowhere in that dictionary definition (which is not copied from the Bible) is the word person. Women take Plan B thinking if fertilization occrs, it is still just one cell floating around, not a "little perosn."

Also, "We the People" does not refer to all fertilized human cells.

The Bible makes no distinction between a human being and a human person. All human beings, regardless of their age and level of development are equally created in the image of God.

It’s nothing short of tragic to see people discriminate against the youngest and most innocent of us.

 

[GodLovesCats]

It is also tragic to see people discriminate against their mom, saving the baby's life without helping her. I look forward to the day when those unwanted babies grow up and teach the Biblical definition of a person along with ways to prevent criminal pregnancies.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Nowhere in that dictionary definition (which is not copied from the Bible) is the word person. Women take Plan B thinking if fertilization occrs, it is still just one cell floating around, not a "little perosn."

Also, "We the People" does not refer to all fertilized human cells.

Of course they are little people.

A little bird in an egg is a little bird in an egg.

M-Bob

 

[Peter J Barban]

I belong to a large church that has slowly adopted the social justice movement. I think many of the pastors quietly support every social justice element including abortion. But I don't think they are ready to admit it.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Bible makes no distinction between a human being and a human person. All human beings, regardless of their age and level of development are equally created in the image of God.

It’s nothing short of tragic to see people discriminate against the youngest and most innocent of us.

Being and person are not the same thing, whether or not the Bible distinguishes between the two. Nicene Christology, for instance, most certainly does distinguish between being and person.

There are no developed nations that consider a zygote to be a person. To prove murder in court you need to have actual evidence that a murder has taken place, and I don't see how that can be done without unjust intrusions into peoples private lives.

 

[Gregory95]

Sad that some professing Christians are okay with destroying a life