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The Inspiration of Scripture

What the Bible says, God says.


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redleghunter

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Then your faith must be shattered:

Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions

It happens if the foundation of your faith is an inerrant book vs. the living person of Jesus Christ.

There is indeed much truth in all of those personal accounts, but the truth is not based on the infallibility of words on a page, but on an infallible God and his living voice that speaks a message of truth through them.
Ah infidels.org What a paragon of Biblical scholarship. Not.

But the mask comes off.
 
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FireDragon76

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God didn't write the letter to the Philippians, as one example. Paul did. God didn't write the gospel according to Luke. Luke did. Did God inspire these writers so that his voice may speak his Gospel message through these words? Yes. Are Paul, Luke, etc. infallible? No. Are all the words they wrote on the page infallible? No. Is God himself infallible? Yes. Are we able to receive God's trustworthy and truthful message of salvation through these writings despite any inconsistencies or errors on the part of the writers? Yes.

If God wrote the bible, he wouldn't have needed humans. He would just speak the bible into existence and then float it down from the heavens to earth with everything he wanted written in it already written to his exact specifications. But that's not what happened.

That's exactly what Muslims believe about the Quran, BTW. In fact Muslims even believe the Quran is essentially God's eternal speech act.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Jesus never tells women they must be silent and he told Mary Magdalene to go tell of his resurrection to the disciples. Therefore, he instructed a woman to preach, for all practical purposes.

Therefore he instructed a woman to evangelize. There is nowhere in the New Testament where a woman is rightly instructed to preach.
 
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bekkilyn

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I could not return to real faith as an adult until I realized God could be a living reality that made a difference in peoples lives and not just an historical claim in a book. Evangelicalism as a teenager primed me to think of the Bible as an artifact full of absurd truth claims about the world, and my liberal Methodist background did nothing really to dissuade that notion other than to affirm that Christianity was merely moralism with empty rituals and ugly, drab aesthetics. So I sought spirituality in eastern religions.

Oh yes, I know. I remember someone on a radio program coming up with this whole ridiculous notion that the devil planted all of the dinosaur fossils into the ground in order to deceive us away from believing that every word of the bible was literally true and had no errors or inconsistencies anywhere in it. It was so silly that I don't know how any reasonable person would be attracted to Christianity by trying to force themselves to believe such things.
 
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FireDragon76

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redleghunter

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How does this question have anything to do with infallibility? Or are you one of those people who think in such a dualistic way that if it isn't infallible, then it must be a total and complete lie?



Here is a pretty good post on Wesley's view of scripture:

http://thomasjayoord.com/index.php/blog/archives/john-wesleys-view-scripture

Taking just one thing Wesley says somewhere out of context is not really a good way of learning how John Wesley tended to think about things. When Wesley uses the term "infallible" or "inerrant" he's not using it in the same way modern Evangelicals are using it today, which is a fairly recent invention.

It's about the trustworthiness and truthfulness of the *message*, and the voice or Word of God speaks that message of Gospel truth even through words written by fallible human beings who sometimes contradict one another or voice their own opinions and thoughts.
"I now propose short, clear, and strong arguments prove the divine inspiration of the holy Scriptures.

"The Bible must be the invention either (1.) of good men or angels, (2.) of bad men or devils, or (3.) of God.


  • It could not be the invention of good men or angels; they neither would nor could make a book, and tell lies all the time they were writing it, saying, "Thus says the Lord," when it was their own invention.
  • It could not be the invention of bad men or devils; for they would not make a book which commands all duty, forbids all sin, and condemns their souls to hell to all eternity.
  • Therefore, I draw this conclusion, that the Bible must be given by divine inspiration.


-- (edited from the tract by John Wesley).
 
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bekkilyn

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If God's word is not found in the words of Scripture but through some words of Scripture, then how may we really know what's God's word and what's not?

I fear it boils down to what you prefer, what inspires you, or what tickles your fancy. These things in Scripture are God's word. But the stuff that's distasteful to you? Pffff. Clearly not God's word!

But do you see what we've done there? You no longer have a God who stands over and above you who is able to offend you or contradict you. You are worshipping an idealized version of yourself. This is the real instance of idolatry here. It is not idolatry to accept the words of Scripture as God's words.

It's part of the sanctification process of working out our salvation. We spend time studying scripture, but also in prayer, meditation, corporate worship, and other disciplines that allow us to listen for and hear God's voice speaking to us. Remember, he is a LIVING God and is still active in our lives today.
 
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redleghunter

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More from John Wesley:

"Concerning the Scriptures in general, it may be observed, the word of the living God, which directed the first patriarchs also, was, in the time of Moses, committed to writing. To this were added, in several succeeding generations, the inspired writings of the other prophets. Afterward, what the Son of God preached, and the Holy Ghost spake by the apostles, the apostles and evangelists wrote. - This is what we now style the Holy Scripture: this is that word of God which remaineth for ever: of which, though heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle shall not pass away. The Scripture therefore of the Old and New Testament, is a most solid and precious system of Divine truth. Every part thereof is worthy of God; and all together are one entire body, wherein is no defect, no excess. It is the fountain of heavenly wisdom, which they who are able to taste, prefer to all writings of men, however wise, or learned, or holy.

An exact knowledge of the truth was accompanied in the inspired writers with an exactly regular series of arguments, a precise expression of their meaning, and a genuine vigor of suitable affections. The chain of argument in each book is briefly exhibited in the table prefixed to it, which contains also the sum thereof, and may be of more use than prefixing the argument to each chapter; the division of the New Testament into chapters having been made in the dark ages, and very incorrectly; often separating things that are closely joined, and joining those that are entirely distinct from each other.

In the language of the sacred writings, we may observe the utmost depth, together with the utmost ease. All the elegancies of human composures sink into nothing before it: God speaks not as man, but as God. His thoughts are very deep: and thence his words are of inexhaustible virtue. And the language of his messengers also is exact in the highest degree: for the words which were given them accurately answered the impression made upon their minds: and hence Luther says, "Divinity is nothing but a grammar of the language of the Holy Ghost." To understand this thoroughly, we should observe the emphasis which lies on every word; the holy affections expressed thereby, and the tempers shown by every writer. But how little are these, the latter especially, regarded? Though they are wonderfully diffused through the whole New Testament, and are in truth a continued commendation of him who acts, or speaks, or writes."

-- from the "Preface" to Explanatory Notes on the New Testament.
 
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RexColin

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Inspired does not mean verbatim. Yes the Bible is the Word of God, Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, but unless it says and God said in the original text and not the Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English text, it is mostly "and man thinks God said" such and such. No doubt the bible is God's word preserved, but that does not mean for example the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc is verbatim. Given all that, the bible is the most powerful tool on Earth if you put the effort and time in to studying it narratively and linguistically in context rather than snip and clip connect the dots. So is the bible the inspired word of God, yes. But chances are there is mistranslations and non-verbatim comments in it as well.
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh yes, I know. I remember someone on a radio program coming up with this whole ridiculous notion that the devil planted all of the dinosaur fossils into the ground in order to deceive us away from believing that every word of the bible was literally true and had no errors or inconsistencies anywhere in it. It was so silly that I don't know how any reasonable person would be attracted to Christianity by trying to force themselves to believe such things.

I tried for a while. And I ended up more like a crazy Scientologist than anything I recognize today as a disciple of Jesus. I was fearful and irrational. Sometimes I think Christians desperately need other perspectives other than a religious echo chamber, as a result.
 
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redleghunter

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More from Wesley:

"In matters of religion I regard no writings but the inspired. Tauler, Behmen, and a whole army of Mystic authors, are with me nothing to St. Paul. In every point I appeal "to the law and the testimony," and value no authority but this.

"At a time when I was in great danger of not valuing this authority enough, you made that important observation: "I see where your mistake lies. You would have a philosophical religion; but there can be no such thing. Religion is the most plain, simple thing in the world. It is only, 'We love him, because he first loved us.' So far as you add philosophy to religion, just so far you spoil it." This remark I have never forgotten since; and I trust in God I never shall."

--From An Extract of a Letter to the Reverend Mr. Law Occasioned by Some of his Late Writings .
 
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redleghunter

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And this from Wesley:

"My ground is the Bible. Yea, I am a Bible-bigot. I follow it in all things, both great and small."

--From the Journal: "June 5, 1766"


"But the Christian rule of right and wrong is the word of God, the writings of the Old and New Testament; all that the Prophets and "holy men of old" wrote "as they were moved by the Holy Ghost;" all that Scripture which was given by inspiration of God, and which is indeed profitable for doctrine, or teaching the whole will of God; for reproof of what is contrary thereto; for correction of error; and for instruction, or training us up, in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16.)

"This is a lantern unto a Christian's feet, and a light in all his paths. This alone he receives as his rule of right or wrong, of whatever is really good or evil. He esteems nothing good, but what is here enjoined, either directly or by plain consequence, he accounts nothing evil but what is here forbidden, either in terms, or by undeniable inference. Whatever the Scripture neither forbids nor conjoins, either directly or by plain consequence, he believes to be of an indifferent nature; to be in itself neither good nor evil; this being the whole and sole outward rule whereby his conscience is to be directed in all things."

--From the Sermons: "The Witness of Our Own Spirit."
 
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redleghunter

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It's part of the sanctification process of working out our salvation. We spend time studying scripture, but also in prayer, meditation, corporate worship, and other disciplines that allow us to listen for and hear God's voice speaking to us. Remember, he is a LIVING God and is still active in our lives today.
I’m curious what “other disciplines” means.
 
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redleghunter

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God didn't write the letter to the Philippians, as one example. Paul did. God didn't write the gospel according to Luke. Luke did. Did God inspire these writers so that his voice may speak his Gospel message through these words? Yes. Are Paul, Luke, etc. infallible? No. Are all the words they wrote on the page infallible? No. Is God himself infallible? Yes. Are we able to receive God's trustworthy and truthful message of salvation through these writings despite any inconsistencies or errors on the part of the writers? Yes.

If God wrote the bible, he wouldn't have needed humans. He would just speak the bible into existence and then float it down from the heavens to earth with everything he wanted written in it already written to his exact specifications. But that's not what happened.
You are now dealing in hyperbole. This will go nowhere.
 
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RexColin

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consider Jesus' words over anything that contradicts Him though.
Umm who is Jesus contradicting? He can't contradict God since he is God. And what Law did he change? He himself said he had not come to abolish the law and that anyone who changes the Law will be the least in the Kingdom, Mathew 5.
 
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FireDragon76

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More from Wesley:

"In matters of religion I regard no writings but the inspired. Tauler, Behmen, and a whole army of Mystic authors, are with me nothing to St. Paul. In every point I appeal "to the law and the testimony," and value no authority but this.

"At a time when I was in great danger of not valuing this authority enough, you made that important observation: "I see where your mistake lies. You would have a philosophical religion; but there can be no such thing. Religion is the most plain, simple thing in the world. It is only, 'We love him, because he first loved us.' So far as you add philosophy to religion, just so far you spoil it." This remark I have never forgotten since; and I trust in God I never shall."

--From An Extract of a Letter to the Reverend Mr. Law Occasioned by Some of his Late Writings .

You do realize Wesley lived at a time when he could be defrocked and or jailed for writing anything to the contrary? That religion itself was politicized? It seems to me we must consider his statements in light of that. There was alot of social pressure in his time to demonize Catholics and to be overtly evangelical, for instance, which he often did so, and yet at the same time he read from Catholic authors. So it seems to me we should not decontextualize what he is saying here.
 
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bekkilyn

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Ah infidels.org What a paragon of Biblical scholarship. Not.

But the mask comes off.

The mask of what? Google? You could do the same just like I did and read the same list of things from a site that has an address you like better. It's not like they're going to be any different in the next place you see them, or when you actually look them up in scripture.

Basically, all you really need to do is go to the first two chapters of Genesis and see that the order of creation is different in the two different creation accounts.

For me, that's fine because the message that it was God who created everything still stands even if the writer (or writers) of Genesis got things a bit confused in the details. Since the foundation of my faith is in the person of Jesus Christ rather than in an inerrant book, my faith is still intact when contradictions in the book are pointed out.
 
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redleghunter

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You do realize Wesley lived at a time when he could be defrocked and or jailed for writing anything to the contrary?
So he was being deceptive to his own movement to save his own skin?

It seems to me we must consider his statements in light of that.
Or he really believed such. And this is the correct answer as he did not sputter our rote Theology but can see the Love of Christ in his statements.
 
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