The Inspiration of Scripture

[Tree of Life]

It seems to me you are just admitting that naive readings of Scriptures are not God's direct speech act, which destroys the premise of most of the arguments we see on this forum. It is very much contrary to the typical meaning of the phrase, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it."

Naive misreadings and misrepresentations of Scripture cannot be what the Bible says.

What the Bible says is established by solid, plain, historical grammatical exegesis. What the Bible says is established by allowing the clearer parts of Scripture to interpret the less clear parts of Scripture.

"What the Bible says, God says" does not at all mean that every misuse of Scripture is what God says.

But if the Bible does indeed says it, then we should indeed believe it, and that should indeed settle it.

 

[bekkilyn]

Their personal accounts is how we got the Gospel message.

God reveals Himself to people and sends them as messengers. He also uses people to write things down for future generations. YHWH wrote on the tablets of stone and handed them to Moses.

If God can’t communicate His infallible words to be recorded without error then He is not the God He proclaims to be.

Then your faith must be shattered:

Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions

It happens if the foundation of your faith is an inerrant book vs. the living person of Jesus Christ.

There is indeed much truth in all of those personal accounts, but the truth is not based on the infallibility of words on a page, but on an infallible God and his living voice that speaks a message of truth through them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Then your faith must be shattered:

Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions

It happens if the foundation of your faith is an inerrant book vs. the living person of Jesus Christ.

There is indeed much truth in all of those personal accounts, but the truth is not based on the infallibility of words on a page, but on an infallible God and his living voice that speaks a message of truth through them.

I could not return to real faith as an adult until I realized God could be a living reality that made a difference in peoples lives and not just an historical claim in a book. Evangelicalism as a teenager primed me to think of the Bible as an artifact full of absurd truth claims about the world, and my liberal Methodist background did nothing really to dissuade that notion other than to affirm that Christianity was merely moralism with empty rituals and ugly, drab aesthetics. So I sought spirituality in eastern religions.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is indeed much truth in all of those personal accounts, but the truth is not based on the infallibility of words on a page, but on an infallible God and his living voice that speaks a message of truth through them.

If God's word is not found in the words of Scripture but through some words of Scripture, then how may we really know what's God's word and what's not?

I fear it boils down to what you prefer, what inspires you, or what tickles your fancy. These things in Scripture are God's word. But the stuff that's distasteful to you? Pffff. Clearly not God's word!

But do you see what we've done there? You no longer have a God who stands over and above you who is able to offend you or contradict you. You are worshipping an idealized version of yourself. This is the real instance of idolatry here. It is not idolatry to accept the words of Scripture as God's words.

 

[FireDragon76]

But do you see what we've done there? You no longer have a God who stands over and above you who is able to offend you or contradict you. You are worshipping an idealized version of yourself. This is the real instance of idolatry here. It is not idolatry to accept the words of Scripture as God's words.

Most likely @bekkilyn merely has a higher view of the Holy Spirit, and the Church as a community of ethical/moral deliberation. I doubt its really about creating God in her own image, anymore than the rest of us do.

 

[Tree of Life]

I think @bekkilyn merely has a higher view of the Holy Spirit, and the Church as a community of ethical/moral deliberation. I doubt its really about creating God in her own image, anymore than the rest of us do.

I don't put anything past sinners like myself. We are very prone to fashion gods in our own image and very resistant to worshipping the living God. This is exactly what we are in danger of doing when we say things like "God can speak through the Bible, but the Bible is not God's word."

 

[redleghunter]

The Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation; so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an article of faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation (Articles of Religion, Article V).

It seems he relied on the infallible Scriptures for doctrine.

 

[Calvin_1985]

John 21:25
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

This is all the more reason to believe that the little that was written and preserved...is most necessary.

Is God speaking when Paul says it’s him speaking and not the Lord?[/QUOTE]
Yes and here is why. Paul was a Human. A Human with an experience with the Father after His encounter with Jesus. Paul sometimes spoke from experience that was cultivated by Yahweh. So when Paul says stuff Like -It is Himself speakingrather than The Lord-, that it is not a commandment of God or of Jesus Christ, from God, but wisdom gained in learning what is profitable and what isn't.

I have had the same question you pose here before about Philemon. For the longest time I couldn't really figure out why it was in the Bible because it really does not say much about The Gospel like Romans or Galatians, Ephesians, etc. do. But what is meant to see with it is the essence of the letter. The essence is Paul's Heart and brotherly Love for another. It shows laying someone's charge upon yourself and not even holding somebody in debt to yourself. It shows Forgiveness. It shows what Jesus had done to Paul's heart verses what his heart was like when stood by allowing Stephen to be stoned to death.
That my friend, while not directly Father speaking like He did in the Old Testament with "Thus says The LORD", speaks of the transformation Jesus Messiah to ones heart, mind and soul. That transformation is inspired by God thereby making the letter of Philemon inspired scripture. Forgiveness, Love, Peace, Faith and Hope is put on Display by Paul's heart.

We have to look beyond the words and see where the words come from. I hope this helps you understand.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't put anything past sinners like myself. We are very prone to fashion gods in our own image and very resistant to worshipping the living God. This is exactly what we are in danger of doing when we say things like "God can speak through the Bible, but the Bible is not God's word."

But aren't we equally in danger of idolizing past interpretations of the Scriptures with your proposed method, especially in light of the actual history of the Church? After all, the Catholics thought they were very biblical in persecuting Galileo, and on a surface reading of the Bible, they were even "correct" to do so. Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest the earth is a sphere and not the center of the solar system, in fact it suggests something very much different - that the world is a surface covered by a dome called the sky, and the sun moves through the sky, and not the earth around the sun.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

He licensed women to preach, so clearly he did not subscribe to the relatively modern notion that every word was somehow God's own speech act. Otherwise he would have tripped up over certain verses like 1 Timothy 2:12.

Where in the Bible do you see Jesus licensing women to preach?

 

[Not David]

No, because the world itself could not contain it, but what Is Written, is binding, whether you believe it or not.

John 21:25
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

This is all the more reason to believe that the little that was written and preserved...is most necessary.

Of course, Scripture is infallible when it is interpreted through the authority of Christ's Church.

 

[bekkilyn]

How do you know anything about Jesus?

How does this question have anything to do with infallibility? Or are you one of those people who think in such a dualistic way that if it isn't infallible, then it must be a total and complete lie?

Why do you think that Wesley thought the Bible was such a final authority on matters of faith and practice? Could it be that Wesley believed that what the Bible says, God says?

He said: "I want to know one thing, - the way to heaven; how to land safe on that happy shore. God himself has condescended to teach the way: For this very end he came from heaven. He hath written it down in a book. O give me that book! At any price, give me the book of God! I have it: Here is knowledge enough for me. Let me be homo unius libri (" a man of one book")."

- John Wesley, Preface to Standard Sermons

Here is a pretty good post on Wesley's view of scripture:

http://thomasjayoord.com/index.php/blog/archives/john-wesleys-view-scripture

Taking just one thing Wesley says somewhere out of context is not really a good way of learning how John Wesley tended to think about things. When Wesley uses the term "infallible" or "inerrant" he's not using it in the same way modern Evangelicals are using it today, which is a fairly recent invention.

It's about the trustworthiness and truthfulness of the *message*, and the voice or Word of God speaks that message of Gospel truth even through words written by fallible human beings who sometimes contradict one another or voice their own opinions and thoughts.

 

[Not David]

The earliest liturgy were summaries and prayers from the Scriptures.

The process man, the process.

 

[FireDragon76]

Where in the Bible do you see Jesus licensing women to preach?

Do women need a license to preach? Doesn't that rest on the assumption that being a woman is inherently problematic?

 

[Not David]

I don't know you guys, but a 27 pages thread is tiresome, especially when coming from Pascha, so I am unsubscribing.

See ya!

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Do women need a license to preach? Doesn't that rest on the assumption that being a woman is inherently problematic?

Doesn't answer my question.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What the Bible says, accurately and authoritatively interpreted, God says. Trying to learn what God says from the Bible without any source of authoritative interpretation results in thousands of conflicting manmade denominations who can't agree with one another on what the Bible actually says.

And so one must not read it? What do you make of the noble Bereans in the book of Acts?

 

[bekkilyn]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All πᾶσα
(pasa) 3956: all, every a prim. word
Scripture γραφὴ
(graphē) 1124: a writing, scripture from graphó
is inspired by God θεόπνευστος
(theopneustos) 2315: God-breathed, i.e. inspired by God from theos and pneó
and profitable ὠφέλιμος
(ōphelimos) 5624: useful, profitable from ópheleó
for teaching, διδασκαλίαν
(didaskalian) 1319: instruction (the function or the information) from didaskalos
for reproof,
1649a: reproof from elegchó
for correction, ἐπανόρθωσιν
(epanorthōsin) 1882: correction from epi and anorthoó
for training παιδείαν
(paideian) 3809: the rearing of a child, training, discipline from paideuó
in righteousness; δικαιοσύνῃ
(dikaiosunē) 1343: righteousness, justice from dikaios
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - New International Version

Are you familiar with the Hebrew Names for God - Ruach HaKodesh...the Ruach hakodesh (Ruach HaKodesh - The Holy Spirit - Segullah)....The Holy Breath of Yah.

Do you believe that Scripture is "God-Breathed" and, if so, do you believe that it is His (Yahshua's) Spirit? Do you know what you are saying when you say He didn't write the Bible? Oh, it is an insult, to the Bible writers, to us who believe Scripture, and most importantly, to He Who Breathed it.

*With that, I leave this thread.

God didn't write the letter to the Philippians, as one example. Paul did. God didn't write the gospel according to Luke. Luke did. Did God inspire these writers so that his voice may speak his Gospel message through these words? Yes. Are Paul, Luke, etc. infallible? No. Are all the words they wrote on the page infallible? No. Is God himself infallible? Yes. Are we able to receive God's trustworthy and truthful message of salvation through these writings despite any inconsistencies or errors on the part of the writers? Yes.

If God wrote the bible, he wouldn't have needed humans. He would just speak the bible into existence and then float it down from the heavens to earth with everything he wanted written in it already written to his exact specifications. But that's not what happened.

 

[FireDragon76]

Doesn't answer my question.

Jesus never tells women they must be silent and he told Mary Magdalene to go tell of his resurrection to the disciples. Therefore, he instructed a woman to preach, for all practical purposes.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I found it more interesting that Satan apparently has extensive familitiarity with the Scriptures, and yet that is rarely a subject of theological reflection.

Oh, I don't think you give the body of believers enough credit. It is often taught that we must be very well read and handle the Scripture in the right spirit.