Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

[Dorothy Mae]

Christ is risen!!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What good works have you done lately? I my self am such a great person!!!!!!! Stop goading me.

HUH?????

 

[Dorothy Mae]

ok take your time.

Answer the questions I put to you first.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree. And, incidentally perhaps, that was also the historic position of the church.

It was the historic position of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Only once.

I think God is more merciful that you are.

I still believe christians can fall away from the faith and be lost and in fact know many who have. They are lost. They were believers and today are not. But I do not think they can fall away only once. Good thing Peter returned from falling away and good thing Jesus did not tell him he could only do it once. Whew!!

 

[The Foss]

Notice the writer says "we":

Heb 10:26 - For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 - but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

That is what the new testament says about those who sin wilfully. It's fairly straightforward.

Jn 5-24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think God is more merciful that you are.

Salvation is a one time thing, so is perdition, but that is what you get into when you make salvation about what you do.

I still believe christians can fall away from the faith and be lost and in fact know many who have. They are lost. They were believers and today are not. But I do not think they can fall away only once. Good thing Peter returned from falling away and good thing Jesus did not tell him he could only do it once. Whew!!

Peter never fell away, your the one that makes everything a performance evaluation. You might want to double check where I'm coming from with this. Jesus reveals how this works by quoting a passage, that Luke actually ends his Gospel with, as an explanation for those who reject the gospel:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. (Matthew 13:15 Isaiah 6:9,10)​

Jesus explains this with a parable that you might hear taught in Sunday school to children, my granddaughter was telling me about it recently. I won't bore you with an exposition since it's probably already familiar and a child could understand. I think we can agree the the good soil, that bears fruit in abundance, is the one who receives eternal life. What we obviously don't agree on is the other soils with regards to whether or not they were ever saved.

Repentance being the change of one's mind at the seat of moral reflection didn't seem to impress you much, even though it clarifies things, you wanted nothing to do with it. Imputed righteousness didn't warrant a passing reaction even though it's an essential process by which the salvation is received in the first place. Still not hearing the gospel, not sure how you manage to discuss salvation at length and never qualify it as being the result of believing the gospel, which all New Testament writers emphasis in the strongest possible terms.

Now all of that could easily be dismissed as us talking past one another, no problem. But to insist that you can be 'in the faith' and fall away, directly contradicts Hebrews 6:4. I'll quote it again since you obviously missed the part where if you fall away you cannot be restored to repentance:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6)
​

Some would call this condition, the believer here has 'fallen away' from, prevenient grace. I believe this is describing the soils other then the good soil that bears fruit, in that, they were never saved. Now they had everything they needed for salvation but the Word of God for various reason was quenched in their hearts. That's the seat of moral reflection you showed no interest in. What is also curiously absent is what one might do to lose salvation and then in turn regain it, guess the particulars will remain like chasing ghosts in the fog.

Just one more thing, Peter didn't fall away from the faith, I'm not entirely sure he sinned. It's safe to say he failed, but I think Jesus forgave him before it happened and that grace was what got him through it. It's not worth the struggle if God abandons you the first time you fail and trust me, everyone does or they are not trying. When you return Jesus tells Peter, strengthen the others. Not if, but when, because Jesus prayed that his faith would hold firm and from all accounts it did. Would you judge Job who went through his trial of faith as a sinner because the evil he was suffering looked like divine retribution? Because his friends did.

Salvation is a work of God that is apart from works. Sure works follow and every tree that bears not fruit is cast into the fire and burned. Jesus cursed the fig tree shortly after his Triumphant entry because the tree was defective, actually infertile, and was incapable of bearing fruit. The proper thing to do was to cut it down and burn it to ashes. That's what happens to the children of perdition whether they made a Christian profession or not, they became incapable of bearing fruit. Both salvation and perdition are one time events, repentance is a process by which the believer struggles with sin in their lives. We do well to discern the difference.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

It was the historic position of Jesus of Nazareth.

No it wasn't.

 

[HTacianas]

Jn 5-24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

Where does that leave all of those dire warnings against falling away?

 

[MDC]

It was the historic position of Jesus of Nazareth.

No, Jesus taught eternal life rest in Him, to them that believeth. John 3:36. It is the self righteous and the wicked who reject this great truth

 

[MDC]

Where does that leave all of those dire warnings against falling away?

It’s hard for the self righteous to give all glory to Christ in salvation

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, Jesus taught eternal life rest in Him, to them that believeth. John 3:36. It is the self righteous and the wicked who reject this great truth

Where did Jesus say, "eternal life rests in me?" He actually said, "this is eternal life, that they know you, the One true God, and Jesus christ whom you have sent." That is eternal life, knowing God, not believe Jesus is keeping your salvation for you so you can do as you please.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It’s hard for the self righteous to give all glory to Christ in salvation

It is hard for those who want to love no one but themselves to admit that Christ bids a man to follow him leaving behind many worldly pleasures. OSAS offers salvation and worldly pleasures......or so they think.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No it wasn't.

Yes actually it is. And what is worse, Jesus taught over and over and over again, that repentance is necessary AND that judgement is coming based on our deeds. The sheep and the goats basely solely on what they did or failed to do. The talents given received reward including being sent away based solely on what they did or failed to do. The two sons where only the one did the father's will. There is no hint of him having done it all so man doesn't have to obey God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Salvation is a one time thing, so is perdition, but that is what you get into when you make salvation about what you do.


Peter never fell away, your the one that makes everything a performance evaluation. You might want to double check where I'm coming from with this. Jesus reveals how this works by quoting a passage, that Luke actually ends his Gospel with, as an explanation for those who reject the gospel:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. (Matthew 13:15 Isaiah 6:9,10)​

Jesus explains this with a parable that you might hear taught in Sunday school to children, my granddaughter was telling me about it recently. I won't bore you with an exposition since it's probably already familiar and a child could understand. I think we can agree the the good soil, that bears fruit in abundance, is the one who receives eternal life. What we obviously don't agree on is the other soils with regards to whether or not they were ever saved.

Repentance being the change of one's mind at the seat of moral reflection didn't seem to impress you much, even though it clarifies things, you wanted nothing to do with it. Imputed righteousness didn't warrant a passing reaction even though it's an essential process by which the salvation is received in the first place. Still not hearing the gospel, not sure how you manage to discuss salvation at length and never qualify it as being the result of believing the gospel, which all New Testament writers emphasis in the strongest possible terms.

Now all of that could easily be dismissed as us talking past one another, no problem. But to insist that you can be 'in the faith' and fall away, directly contradicts Hebrews 6:4. I'll quote it again since you obviously missed the part where if you fall away you cannot be restored to repentance:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6)
​

Some would call this condition, the believer here has 'fallen away' from, prevenient grace. I believe this is describing the soils other then the good soil that bears fruit, in that, they were never saved. Now they had everything they needed for salvation but the Word of God for various reason was quenched in their hearts. That's the seat of moral reflection you showed no interest in. What is also curiously absent is what one might do to lose salvation and then in turn regain it, guess the particulars will remain like chasing ghosts in the fog.

Just one more thing, Peter didn't fall away from the faith, I'm not entirely sure he sinned. It's safe to say he failed, but I think Jesus forgave him before it happened and that grace was what got him through it. It's not worth the struggle if God abandons you the first time you fail and trust me, everyone does or they are not trying. When you return Jesus tells Peter, strengthen the others. Not if, but when, because Jesus prayed that his faith would hold firm and from all accounts it did. Would you judge Job who went through his trial of faith as a sinner because the evil he was suffering looked like divine retribution? Because his friends did.

Salvation is a work of God that is apart from works. Sure works follow and every tree that bears not fruit is cast into the fire and burned. Jesus cursed the fig tree shortly after his Triumphant entry because the tree was defective, actually infertile, and was incapable of bearing fruit. The proper thing to do was to cut it down and burn it to ashes. That's what happens to the children of perdition whether they made a Christian profession or not, they became incapable of bearing fruit. Both salvation and perdition are one time events, repentance is a process by which the believer struggles with sin in their lives. We do well to discern the difference.

Have a nice day
Mark

Jesus said Peter would fall away from the faith and he did. He even denied knowing Jesus at all. That is falling away from t he faith. Jesus said if you deny him before men, he will deny you before the Father. Jesus did not have any problem believing men fall away from the faith and are lost. IN OSAS you can fall away from the faith and I guess it doesn't mean anything. Jesus did not promise that if you deny him before men it just means less rewards. "HE who endures to the end, and only he who endures to the end, will be saved." He did not promise you will endure nor that he is keeping salvation safe whether you endure or not.

Where does the Bible say salvation is a one time thing? How come Jesus spoke of it in the future and said endurance is necessary?

Let us look at that Hebrews verse and see how much of it applies to the christians at your church.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6)

Has your church members tasted of the heavenly gift and do they know what that means? It is not mere salvation as for those who have so tasted, salvation is long behind them as they moved into maturity. Are they partakers of the Holy Ghost? Not in believing no matter what but real powers of the Holy Spirit like healing the sick, casting out demons, that sort of real infilling. You see, those who fall in the above category don't merely believe, but are wielding the powers of the age to come. This is not the Christian one meets in the west for the most part. So I ask you, are believers in your church wielding powers of the age to come? IF not, none of this applies. There are very often conditions in the Bible.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jn 5-24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

What if they don't change their deeds and so are not transformed at all? What if they do not behave any differently? Jesus said, "he who loves me keeps my teaching. ANd these my father will love and we will come and dwell in them." Hmmmmm. Believes and trusts means obey. No obeying means one does not believe or trust.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Good point, we can't just ignore part of it because we don't like it, we have to take the good with what we think may not be so good. Selfish people have to have it all their way so they pretend it is. Jesus was all about not being selfish but I'm sure some ignore that as well.

Anyway, no matter what, heaven/eternal life is a very good deal considering what we have to do/not do in order to get there, and even what we have to do/may not like, is good for us in the here and now.

A lot don't want to receive a love of the truth, they just want to know they are going to heaven and if they get ahold of a theology where a man promises this without them having to submit to the will of God, love God or man and the selfish man remains alive and fully functioning, so much the better. They do not want to be transformed except in their sleep so nothing costs them anything. They want to want to do the will of God and are assuming God is changing them so they will. But in the meantime they can do as they please. That seems to be the case.

 

[MDC]

Where did Jesus say, "eternal life rests in me?" He actually said, "this is eternal life, that they know you, the One true God, and Jesus christ whom you have sent." That is eternal life, knowing God, not believe Jesus is keeping your salvation for you so you can do as you please.

Do as I please lol? Sure! Eternal life is in Christ. That’s something those who rely upon their own self righteousness cannot believe. Losing eternal life in Christ are only pushed and believed by those who do not believe the gospel

 

[MDC]

It is hard for those who want to love no one but themselves to admit that Christ bids a man to follow him leaving behind many worldly pleasures. OSAS offers salvation and worldly pleasures......or so they think.

Like I said it’s impossible for the self righteous to lay hold upon Christ and forsake their sin of resting in their own works as the grounds for justification

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes actually it is. And what is worse, Jesus taught over and over and over again, that repentance is necessary AND that judgement is coming based on our deeds. The sheep and the goats basely solely on what they did or failed to do. The talents given received reward including being sent away based solely on what they did or failed to do. The two sons where only the one did the father's will. There is no hint of him having done it all so man doesn't have to obey God.

Let's slow down here DM, I never said repentance wasn't necessary, I said it was a gift of God apart from works. Of course you will be judged for every thought, word and deed on the last day, but on that day only God will be glorified because the works of righteousness that follow saving faith are God's work, lest any man should boast. The parable of the sheep and the goats, which is actually an analogy, indicates two distinctive species easily discerned. The goats appeared religious enough and as far as their religious peers were concerned, ministers even. Jesus said by this all men will know you are disciples if you have love one for another, the goats had no such love, again an obvious distinction. The goats were hard working enough, they just failed the sheep because they were never sheep themselves. They were children of perdition, false teachers and fruitless ministers...in short hypocrites. They didn't lose salvation, they never had it.

Ok, so the guy who buries the talents, he did nothing with the gospel. You can't believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise, new birth and never do anything with it. That's not salvation, that's the mindset of a whitewashed tomb.

Ok, finally the two sons, one that said he would do God's will and one that refused. Then the one who agreed disobeyed and the other who refused, went ahead and did it. Notice, there is nothing there with regards to what it was the Father demanded. Anyway, ever notice sinners and publicans responded to Jesus while the pious Jews of his day largely opposed him? At Jesus' baptism the Father said 'This is my Son with whom I am well pleased, hear ye him'. That is the first and foundational act of obedience, you hear the gospel and believe it and I have yet to hear the gospel from you once. Why is that?