Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

[Dorothy Mae]

Like I said it’s impossible for the self righteous to lay hold upon Christ and forsake their sin of resting in their own works as the grounds for justification

This is what I mean by do as they please. What do you think you do not do because of your laying ahold of Christ and forsake your sin of resting in doing good for others?

(I never ment 100s of Christians and maybe 1000s and not met one who rests in their own works as grounds for justification. Not one. This is a straw man accusation.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do as I please lol? Sure! Eternal life is in Christ. That’s something those who rely upon their own self righteousness cannot believe. Losing eternal life in Christ are only pushed and believed by those who do not believe the gospel

Jesus said the goats go into eternal punishment because.......they did not believe in Christ? IS that why? Hummmm

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's slow down here DM, I never said repentance wasn't necessary, I said it was a gift of God apart from works.

So are you a Calvinsist who believers God chooses only some people who are granted repentance? Where is repentance as gift and how come Jesus never told men that they need to ask God so they can repent?

Of course you will be judged for every thought, word and deed on the last day, but on that day only God will be glorified because the works of righteousness that follow saving faith are God's work, lest any man should boast.

Consider the men to whom Jesus will say "well done." Are they going to boast? Does the picture in Revelation look like anyone is boasting before the throne.

The parable of the sheep and the goats, which is actually an analogy, indicates two distinctive species easily discerned.

Please don't use the scientific word. There are not two species of men.

The goats appeared religious enough and as far as their religious peers were concerned, ministers even.

Jesus didn't say they were.

Jesus said by this all men will know you are disciples if you have love one for another, the goats had no such love, again an obvious distinction. The goats were hard working enough, they just failed the sheep because they were never sheep themselves.

Jesus didn't say they were hardworking enough. You are changing what JEsus said.

They were children of perdition, false teachers and fruitless ministers...in short hypocrites. They didn't lose salvation, they never had it.

Jesus didn't say that either. He said they did nothing for others that the sheep had done including for his. He sent them to hell. I do not think one can earn heaven, make no m istake, but if one does nothing, then no transformation has taken place. If one thinks Christ did it all, they are sadly mistaken according to the teaching of JEsus. This "Christ did it all so I need do nothing" is a false teaching.

Ok, so the guy who buries the talents, he did nothing with the gospel. You can't believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise, new birth and never do anything with it. That's not salvation, that's the mindset of a whitewashed tomb.

You are assuming he meant the Gospel. It is not in the account. I think it is not limited to that.

Ok, finally the two sons, one that said he would do God's will and one that refused. Then the one who agreed disobeyed and the other who refused, went ahead and did it. Notice, there is nothing there with regards to what it was the Father demanded.

What? The father had a will and only one son did it. How can you say the father had nothing in particular he wanted done? (And God does not demand in that sense either. But failure to do the will of God and there are consequences, sometimes eternal unless repented of.)

Anyway, ever notice sinners and publicans responded to Jesus while the pious Jews of his day largely opposed him? At Jesus' baptism the Father said 'This is my Son with whom I am well pleased, hear ye him'. That is the first and foundational act of obedience, you hear the gospel and believe it and I have yet to hear the gospel from you once. Why is that?

I have matured beyond salvation many years ago and am walking with him endeavoring to obey Him and as a result I know him. Salvation was for me a sweet memory some 50 years ago maybe. I have moved on from the milk of the word into the meat and that long ago.

Besides, you guys all know the gospel. Why preach the gospel to the choir?

Do you want to know what I desire for me brethren? That they come to love God and love others. They they leave the baby food of merely being saved and moved into maturity. If all a man knows is salvation, he is an infant in the faith.

 

[MDC]

This is what I mean by do as they please. What do you think you do not do because of your laying ahold of Christ and forsake your sin of resting in doing good for others?

(I never ment 100s of Christians and maybe 1000s and not met one who rests in their own works as grounds for justification. Not one. This is a straw man accusation.)

The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ is a doctrine held by most professing Christianity of all stripes. It is those who hold to this doctrine and many other self righteous doctrines, who look their works as the grounds for justification. Welcome to the club

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ is a doctrine held by most professing Christianity of all stripes. It is those who hold to this doctrine and many others who look their works as the grounds for justification. Welcome to the club

Nonsense. Maybe the Catholics do this, I grant you. But otherwise only JWs work for their salvation.

I have met 1000s of Christians and know of no one who look to their works as grounds for justification. This is a strawman argument. It is just not true. I k now the OSAS preachers warm the hearts of their followers by telling them they are better than others because they just trust CHrist and everyone else who does good to the world is trusting in their works, but it is not true. Makes OSASer feel righteous, I know, but it is not true.

We do works because we believe the whole of the Bible and set our hearts to love GOd and man. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for his friends. Doesn't mean the one who does this work thinks they are buying their own justification. The motive of loving others needs to be acknowledge by the OSAS crowd. We do works because we love God and man. Now that is a new thought, isn't it?

 

[MDC]

Nonsense. Maybe the Catholics do this, I grant you. But otherwise only JWs work for their salvation.

I have met 1000s of Christians and know of no one who look to their works as grounds for justification. This is a strawman argument. It is just not true. I k now the OSAS preachers warm the hearts of their followers by telling them they are better than others because they just trust CHrist and everyone else who does good to the world is trusting in their works, but it is not true. Makes OSASer feel righteous, I know, but it is not true.

We do works because we believe the whole of the Bible and set our hearts to love GOd and man. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for his friends. Doesn't mean the one who does this work thinks they are buying their own justification. The motive of loving others needs to be acknowledge by the OSAS crowd. We do works because we love God and man. Now that is a new thought, isn't it?

Catholicism is very well a works righteous system that denies the gospel through their sacramental system. The reason Catholics agree with you on your doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ by works of men is because it’s the same as theirs. Just an in the closet Catholic is all it is. There’s nothing to boast in but Christ alone. The elect boast in Christ and He alone. The elect know it’s Gods mercy alone that saves. The self righteous cannot boast in Christ alone. Their works is always what’s elevated as the final grounds for justification for them as you can see by you always resorting to your deeds of righteousness

 

[Kenny'sID]

What good works have you done lately? I my self am such a great person!!!!!!! Stop goading me.

I think you misunderstood my post completely, or I misunderstood yours. Either way probably best you not address me anymore, especially since you accused someone else of goading you just a few hours ago and their post had noting to do with goading.

I don't mind working with someone I can't understand but when they are quick to accuse like that, especially when it comes to something that was so far from a true accusation as this was, it's just not possible...entirely too much to lose.

If I mistakenly address you, please ignore me, but I'll do my best to see that doesn't happen

Thanks for understanding, and sorry there was a misunderstanding. ")

 

[Kenny'sID]

Peter never fell away, your the one that makes everything a performance evaluation.

She's not the only one. I'd definitely call doing good "performance". Question: Will you please read the flowing scripture and tell me how "doing good" is not something we perform?

Like I said it’s impossible for the self righteous to lay hold upon Christ and forsake their sin of resting in their own works as the grounds for justification

A few questions:

Question 1) Did someone here claim to rest only on their works? And if so, to whom do you refer?

Question 2) Do you not call "doing good" as in the following scripture, works? And if not, what do you call it?

Question 3) Do you think to "do good" is required to get into heaven?

Question 4) So are you accusing some of being self righteous because they teach things like the flowing scripture in that we must do good in order to get to heaven?

Question 5) Or is there some other reason, and if so what is that reason?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[frogoon234]

I think you misunderstood my post completely, or I misunderstood yours. Either way probably best you not address me anymore, especially since you accused someone else of goading you just a few hours ago and their post had noting to do with goading.

I don't mind working with someone I can't understand but when they are quick to accuse like that, especially when it comes to something that was so far from a true accusation as this was, it's just not possible...entirely too much to lose.

If I mistakenly address you, please ignore me, but I'll do my best to see that doesn't happen

Thanks for understanding, and sorry there was a misunderstanding. ")

thats fair. i guess it was misunderstanding on both our parts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Catholicism is very well a works righteous system that denies the gospel through their sacramental system. The reason Catholics agree with you on your doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ by works of men is because it’s the same as theirs.

Your thinking on my position is so far from the truth as to be ludicrous. This blindness is difficult to explain outside of an embraced blindness because of OSAS. This theology seems to blind those who embrace it. They see only two positions, theirs or works salvation.

Just an in the closet Catholic is all it is. There’s nothing to boast in but Christ alone. The elect boast in Christ and He alone. The elect know it’s Gods mercy alone that saves. The self righteous cannot boast in Christ alone. Their works is always what’s elevated as the final grounds for justification for them as you can see by you always resorting to your deeds of righteousness

When did I ever refer to any deeds of righteousness I did? Can you name a single deed I boasted of doing to obtain righteousness?

 

[The Foss]

What if they don't change their deeds and so are not transformed at all? What if they do not behave any differently? Jesus said, "he who loves me keeps my teaching. ANd these my father will love and we will come and dwell in them." Hmmmmm. Believes and trusts means obey. No obeying means one does not believe or trust.

I agree Dorothy, Heb 10-26-27 For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate], 27 but a kind of awful and terrifying expectation of [divine] judgment and the fury of a fire and burning wrath which will consume the adversaries [those who put themselves in opposition to God].

Example: Judas Iscariot received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth from Jesus (knowing He was the Christ) but he never excepted Jesus as Saviour.
No sacrifice under the LAW can transform and remove their fallen nature of sin. Jn 3-18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree Dorothy, Heb 10-26-27 For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate], 27 but a kind of awful and terrifying expectation of [divine] judgment and the fury of a fire and burning wrath which will consume the adversaries [those who put themselves in opposition to God].

Thus destroying the OSAS position completely.

Example: Judas Iscariot received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth from Jesus (knowing He was the Christ) but he never excepted Jesus as Saviour.

There is no record any of them “accepted Jesus.” That is a modern gospel twist. They reported they gave up everything to follow him. They surrendered their lives and followed him,

No sacrifice under the LAW can transform and remove their fallen nature of sin. Jn 3-18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

”Believe” to God must be reflected in choices we make. It’s actually true of what we require of each other. We don’t judge a person to be loyal, by them saying “Im loyal” but by how they actually behave.

 

[The Foss]

Where does that leave all of those dire warnings against falling away?

How can a person who has Christ in them "Fall Away"? The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. How can He lead us to Fall Away? Rms 8-38-39?? Can a believer change the eternal nature they have received from Him?

 

[The Foss]

Thus destroying the OSAS position completely. There is no record any of them “accepted Jesus.” That is a modern gospel twist. They reported they gave up everything to follow him. They surrendered their lives and followed him,

”Believe” to God must be reflected in choices we make. It’s actually true of what we require of each other. We don’t judge a person to be loyal, by them saying “Im loyal” but by how they actually behave.

Yes, I agree, when you believe, it will govern your actions and words. The disciples received the Holy Spirit and their nature was changed. Jn 3-6 .... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Once a believer has received the Holy Spirit, can they then change their own nature?

 

[Danthemailman]

I agree Dorothy, Heb 10-26-27 For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate], 27 but a kind of awful and terrifying expectation of [divine] judgment and the fury of a fire and burning wrath which will consume the adversaries [those who put themselves in opposition to God].

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*To sin voluntarily, willingly, willfully is ongoing and continues. Hence the "if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning" (AMP); "if we deliberately go on sinning" (CSB); "if we deliberately continue to sin" (CJB); "if we go on sinning deliberately" (ESV); "if we keep on sinning deliberately" (LEB); "if we go on sinning willfully" (NASB); "If we deliberately keep on sinning" (NIV); "if we willfully persist in sin" (NRSV)

Example: Judas Iscariot received the KNOWLEDGE of the truth from Jesus (knowing He was the Christ) but he never excepted Jesus as Saviour. No sacrifice under the LAW can transform and remove their fallen nature of sin.

Yes, Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who received the knowledge of the truth, yet there was no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas did not truly believe in the name of Jesus (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

Jn 3-18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Amen!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How can a person who has Christ in them "Fall Away"?

If they don’t love him and the father without turning back, he leaves. There is such a thing as quenching the Holy Spirit. A fire quenched is OUT. It’s not a permanent arrangement but a relationship.

The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. How can He lead us to Fall Away? Rms 8-38-39??

We stop following his lead because it’s too narrow or the pleasures of this world start to mean more. We jump out of his hand. We turn back. It happens.

Can a believer change the eternal nature they have received from Him?

Does the indwelling mean all choice is gone? Is the Holy Spirit unable to leave? Do you see a relationship is not set in cement?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*To sin voluntarily, willingly, willfully is ongoing and continues. Hence the "if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning" (AMP); "if we deliberately go on sinning" (CSB); "if we deliberately continue to sin" (CJB); "if we go on sinning deliberately" (ESV); "if we keep on sinning deliberately" (LEB); "if we go on sinning willfully" (NASB); "If we deliberately keep on sinning" (NIV); "if we willfully persist in sin" (NRSV)

You don't mention WHY believers do this. You say what it is and I agree. You don’t say why.

Yes, Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who received the knowledge of the truth, yet there was no heart submission to that knowledge. Judas did not truly believe in the name of Jesus (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

Amen!

You have to
make that up about Judas to fit your theology. What it actually says is he started stealing from the money box. He healed and cast out demons and preached the gospel same as all the others. The difference was the price of continuing to follow was something he didn’t want to pay. He started loving money. That’s what it says. What else you add is what you hoped happened.

But let me ask you, do you think a man who has had heart submissive to the knowledge, truly believes, becomes a child of God can never grow to love money?

 

[HTacianas]

How can a person who has Christ in them "Fall Away"? The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. How can He lead us to Fall Away? Rms 8-38-39?? Can a believer change the eternal nature they have received from Him?

If a person could not fall away, the writer to the Hebrews would not have warned them in such stern terms to avoid it:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;

Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

 

[Danthemailman]

The parable of the sheep and the goats, which is actually an analogy, indicates two distinctive species easily discerned. The goats appeared religious enough and as far as their religious peers were concerned, ministers even. Jesus said by this all men will know you are disciples if you have love one for another, the goats had no such love, again an obvious distinction. The goats were hard working enough, they just failed the sheep because they were never sheep themselves. They were children of perdition, false teachers and fruitless ministers...in short hypocrites. They didn't lose salvation, they never had it.

Amen! After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of works, yet Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, which would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc.. One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because their faith has been accounted to them for righteousness (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation.

*Notice also how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. It's important not to confuse descriptor passages of scriptures with prescriptive passages of scriptures.

Ok, so the guy who buries the talents, he did nothing with the gospel. You can't believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise, new birth and never do anything with it. That's not salvation, that's the mindset of a whitewashed tomb.

Amen! The talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (verse 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own. This lazy, wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a servant does not necessarily mean that he was saved. *The Jews were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Isaiah 43:10 - You are My witnesses, says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen..

 

[Danthemailman]

You have to make that up about Judas to fit your theology. What it actually says is he started stealing from the money box. He healed and cast out demons and preached the gospel same as all the others. The difference was the price of continuing to follow was something he didn’t want to pay. He started loving money. That’s what it says. What else you add is what you hoped happened.

But let me ask you, do you think a man who has had heart submissive to the knowledge, truly believes, becomes a child of God can never grow to love money?

What did I make up? In John 6:64, Jesus clearly stated that there are some of you who do not believe and Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe and who would betray Him. Also, in John 13:10-11, when speaking to the 12 disciples, Jesus said you are clean, but not all of you. Jesus knew Judas would betray Him and therefore He said, You are not all clean.

In John 12:4-6, we read that one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, who would betray Him said, "why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. Nothing here was mentioned that he "started loving money" as if he previously did not, but that he was a thief!

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12). In John 8:31, we read - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine.." Judas did not continue, so apparently, Judas was not truly His disciple.

Why all the sarcasm, accusations and hostility towards eternal security of the believer?