Fossil Challenge for Evolutionists

[Speedwell]

It depends upon what it's based on.

Faith is more rational than believing all we see came from nothing....

Ah, a false dichotomy. But you, yourself, believe we all came from nothing, don't you?

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is most likely a product of evolution. One thing that some people have a difficult time understanding is that "survival of the fittest" is a distortion of evolution. It is the "survival of the fittest population" if anything. So a trait that makes a population better able to survive will make the species stronger and more likely to survive. If one looks in nature the more complex a species is the more "moral" that species is. Each morality will be species specific so the morals of a wolf work well for their species as a whole, but they would not work for beavers as an example. So please do not try to make the error of comparing "morals" between species.

So man is more moral than an ape?
Can we even use the word moral for an ape?
Maybe we could say "instinct"?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Your OT says otherwise. So even if you're a 'NT' Christian, and reject the OT, at some point, stoning unruly children to death was advised. So it seems even your god's morality changes with the times.


21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -Deut. 21

This is silly. Like me trying to understand evolution.

Did you know that some of the laws in the O.T. are MAN-MADE? You think God cares if a goat is boiled in milk?

You can't deny that murder is wrong.
WHO decides that murder is wrong?
GOD.

If man has to decide, then it'll become subjective.
Maybe someone will decide we've lived long enough at the age of 50 and put us away...

It's good that God decides and not man.
Man always messes things up.
Just like he messed up the O.T.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ah, a false dichotomy. But you, yourself, believe we all came from nothing, don't you?

No sir.
I believe God made everything we see.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The point is that civil marriage and the sacrament of holy matrimony are two different things. What you appear to want to do is usurp the authority of the state to license civil marriage. You and your particular religious sect do not own marriage and can't define it for anybody but your own members.

What sect do I belong to?
Christianity is a sect?

Did you answer me?
What came first
God
or
the State?

I DO believe God came first.
The state did not come first and then God showed up.

 

[Speedwell]

No sir.
I believe God made everything we see.

But you reject creation ex nihilo? Unusual for a Christian.

 

[HitchSlap]

This is silly.

I agree.

Did you know that some of the laws in the O.T. are MAN-MADE?

By your logic, so is Leviticus 20:13. Why do you get to pick and choose which man made laws to follow? Surely there's a better way to determine morality.

You think God cares if a goat is boiled in milk?

Right, because goats boiled in milk is right next to homophobia.

You can't deny that murder is wrong.

In my moral framework, murder is wrong. Unfortunately, your god is given to whims, and by divine command, what is moral today, may not be moral tomorrow. Are you familiar with Euthyphro's dilemma?

WHO decides that murder is wrong?

I do. You do. We do.

GOD.

All you have is are copies of ancient manuscripts written by men.

If man has to decide, then it'll become subjective.

Of course it's subjective. Morality can never be anything but.

Maybe someone will decide we've lived long enough at the age of 50 and put us away...

According to my moral framework, this is immoral. Unfortunately, your god might decree by divine command that we all be put to death at age fifty. This would then, by definition, be moral. Unless you can draw a distinction between stoning homosexuals and not fifty year-olds, then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

It's good that God decides and not man.

It's best when humans decide, rather than men deciding what's morally correct and telling others god told them so.

Man always messes things up.

Actually, humans have never lived in such a safe, moral and ethical moment in time.

Just like he messed up the O.T.

I agree, he definitely messed up in the OT, and the rest of us humanists have been trying to fix things for thousands of years now.

In fact, religions have had their shot at morality, it's time you guys step aside so we can make progress as a species.

 

[Speedwell]

What sect do I belong to?
Christianity is a sect?

Did you answer me?
What came first
God
or
the State?

I DO believe God came first.
The state did not come first and then God showed up.

But what you believe God intends about marriage is a sectarian religious belief, not an objective fact.

 

[46AND2]

The next time a hurricane devastates a city...tell the people there that what they see is subjective.

If natural events can be evil by nature, who is responsible for that evil?

I didn't say that what they are seeing is subjective, please don't misrepresent my statements.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I agree.

By your logic, so is Leviticus 20:13. Why do you get to pick and choose which man made laws to follow? Surely there's a better way to determine morality.

Right, because goats boiled in milk is right next to homophobia.

In my moral framework, murder is wrong. Unfortunately, your god is given to whims, and by divine command, what is moral today, may not be moral tomorrow. Are you familiar with Euthyphro's dilemma?

I do. You do. We do.

All you have is are copies of ancient manuscripts written by men.

Of course it's subjective. Morality can never be anything but.

According to my moral framework, this is immoral. Unfortunately, your god might decree by divine command that we all be put to death at age fifty. This would then, by definition, be moral. Unless you can draw a distinction between stoning homosexuals and not fifty year-olds, then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

It's best when humans decide, rather than men deciding what's morally correct and telling others god told them so.

Actually, humans have never lived in such a safe, moral and ethical moment in time.

I agree, he definitely messed up in the OT, and the rest of us humanists have been trying to fix things for thousands of years now.

In fact, religions have had their shot at morality, it's time you guys step aside so we can make progress as a species.

I've had very interesting and satisfying conversations with atheists for long periods of time.
This is not happening here....
You're just mad and upset and would like to see all Christians just disappear...

If you think you're living in an ethical time,,,God bless you with knowledge.

I have nothing further to say.

 

[GodsGrace101]

But what you believe God intends about marriage is a sectarian religious belief, not an objective fact.

Believe what you will.
All I have is 4 chords and the truth.

How did you become such an atheist?
Were you helped along in your learning experience?

You know what they say:
To one who believes
no proof is necessary.

To one who does not believe
no amount of proof is sufficient.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If natural events can be evil by nature, who is responsible for that evil?

I didn't say that what they are seeing is subjective, please don't misrepresent my statements.

If there's no objectivity,,,then things are subjective.
This is our modern belief. Everything is subjective.
Problem is: Who decides what is and isn't?
Lord of the Flies comes to mind.

Evil infests everything in the universe. A sun shines and makes light and heat...then one day it blows up and is disintegrated.

Nature has evil in it. Animals do and humans do.
Romans 8 states that even nature is waiting to be freed from this evil.

The question regarding evil cannot be answered. If someone thinks they know...their wrong. No one knows. In Christianity it's known that satan is responsible for evil...but why is satan evil? There are some theories: Dualism,,,there's a good god and a bad god. Scripture does not affirm this.
God created everything, including evil...Scripture does not affirm this either.

Guess we have to wait to find out just like we have to wait to find out how the universes came about.

 

[HitchSlap]

I've had very interesting and satisfying conversations with atheists for long periods of time.
This is not happening here....

Back atcha'.

You're just mad and upset and would like to see all Christians just disappear...

It's clear you're just projecting here. Just so you understand what projection is, try this on for size; I think deep down you know I'm right and have run out of good argument.

If you think you're living in an ethical time,,,God bless you with knowledge.

Yep, we have never enjoyed more freedoms and protection of rights than ever before in human history. I'm sorry your religion prevents you from seeing this.

I have nothing further to say.

No problem. Should you change your mind, I'll be here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I previously said that it matters not to me if two guys want to live together...it's when marriage is changed from what it's supposed to be that it matters to me.
Do you think I started thinking about this yesterday that I should contradict myself?

It matters to me in the sense that it is still not right...but it's not the same as getting married.
I doubt you read all my posts.

You're not Christian...I can't discuss this with you.
What came first:
God
or
The State?

God instituted marriage
Genesis 2:18
Genesis 2:24

not the state.

No, Genesis is an allegory at best. It does not reflect reality. And you did contradict yourself in several ways. Why can't you discuss something with me? You have a belief that you cannot support. At any rate we are quite far off topic here. Perhaps if you understood evolution you would realize that people were messing around long long before marriage became a thing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It depends upon what it's based on.

Faith is more rational than believing all we see came from nothing....

You would have to define "nothing". An inability to understand the science does not mean that science is irrational. It does not break any laws of physics for the universe to have come from "nothing".

 

[Speedwell]

Believe what you will.
All I have is 4 chords and the truth.

How did you become such an atheist?
Were you helped along in your learning experience?

You know what they say:
To one who believes
no proof is necessary.

To one who does not believe
no amount of proof is sufficient.

How did you conclude I am an atheist? Because I don't agree with your version of Christian doctrine?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So man is more moral than an ape?
Can we even use the word moral for an ape?
Maybe we could say "instinct"?

This is a poorly asked question since man is an ape. It is like asking if German Shepherds are smarter than dogs. And yes, other apes are moral. They have different morals than you do but that does not mean that they are immoral. You should study them a bit.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How did you conclude I am an atheist? Because I don't agree with your version of Christian doctrine?

Ironically you may be an "atheist" in the same way that the earliest of Christians were "atheist". Though of course not the same word, but the Latin word was applied to Christians in Rome because they did not believe in the Roman Gods.

 

[46AND2]

If there's no objectivity,,,then things are subjective.
This is our modern belief. Everything is subjective.
Problem is: Who decides what is and isn't?
Lord of the Flies comes to mind.

Evil infests everything in the universe. A sun shines and makes light and heat...then one day it blows up and is disintegrated.

Nature has evil in it. Animals do and humans do.
Romans 8 states that even nature is waiting to be freed from this evil.

The question regarding evil cannot be answered. If someone thinks they know...their wrong. No one knows. In Christianity it's known that satan is responsible for evil...but why is satan evil? There are some theories: Dualism,,,there's a good god and a bad god. Scripture does not affirm this.
God created everything, including evil...Scripture does not affirm this either.

Guess we have to wait to find out just like we have to wait to find out how the universes came about.

Indeed, according to the Bible, god is omni-benevolent, so he can't have created evil.

And according to the Bible, there are no other gods.

So that leaves you in a pickle. Where the heck did evil come from?

Too bad you're stuck on the objective good and evil thing. Cause the answer is quite obvious otherwise.

Sorry, but one of the things I hated most when I had philosophical questions growing up is when people would say..."I guess you'll just have to ask god when you see him." It's a cop-out; a way to avoid having to answer difficult questions.

 

[VirOptimus]

Everything that can't be proven is religion?
I can't argue good and evil and its existence.
It's like YOU arguing if an eclipse is real.

Good and evil exists throughout the universe.
I'm sure this is studied in philosophy.
If you think it doesn't exist, then for you is everything good? Or is everything evil/bad?

If one is not religious and gets sick...is this a good thing?

I can't remember good/evil being associated with religion when studying English (books).

Moral philosophy studies good/evil yes, I suggest you read Kant, Raz, Hägerstörm to name a few. There are plenty of opinions and suggestions but no evidence for a universal moral code.

As a side note; objective/subjective presupposes an objective agent i.e. god(s) so it is a metaphysical term.